... to not tell my militantly vegan friend she ate fish sauce?

[Snuffalo]

I am a relaxed vegan, as are one of my kids, the other kid and my partner are mostly vegetarian. Basically what that means for me is that I would never spend my own money on animal products, and I wouldn't use them in my own cooking, but if someone else prepares food for me or I'm a guest in someone's home I'll eat what's put in front of me, for the most part - I won't have a sausage or a burger at your barbecue, but I'll eat the pasta salad even if has cheese in it, and I'll have some of your birthday cake even if it's made with eggs.

Anyway, my friend Alice- who is a militant, rather than a relaxed, vegan

• was over and I heated up what I confidently thought to be vegan sweet potato and black bean chilli that my partner had made earlier in the week. I know the recipe backwards and forwards because one of us makes it at least once a month with zero animal products so I had no reason to suspect otherwise. I must say it was especially delicious this time - because, as it turns out, my partner added some fish sauce because he'd read somewhere that it's good in chilli. I didn't find out until today and now I'm wondering if I should tell Alice? I can't decide if, in her shoes, I would want to know or not. Would you?

And it will be a pain in the arse for actual vegans if people start thinking “vegan” means “well, I try not to eat animal products but I do if it makes life easier” Which is a perfectly acceptable, even admirable position to take. But not vegan.

Why do vegans think that non vegans are simply stupid? Why on earth would someone explaining what relaxed veganism is to them mean that person automatically thinks all vegans eat the same? Daft.

Dorsetdays
I have zero problem understanding that people might move towards more ethical practices or try to do their bit, but that's not vegan any more than I am.

With the exception of cheese I've been largely plant based for the last 3 days. Maybe I'm a vegan? But a relaxed one. At the weekend though I'm having a roast, but it doesn't happen much and I can still call myself a vegan because I've made some small changes to my diet over the last 5 years.

BertrandRussell
I agree. And it's interesting that the webpage talks about flexible definitions reduces cruelty etc.
People can make ethical choices without needing to misapply a label to themselves to show the world they've made a few more ethical choices. It's all about shifting language to mean whatever people want and losing the actual definition in the process.

Laurie. I’m sure the OP is very grateful that you’ve clarified what she’s allowed to do

IKR.

Lola. There is no one definition, that’s kind of the point.

If you want to call yourself vegan because you haven’t eaten animal products for three days, go ahead. Nobody cares (except of course ‘militant’ vegans because then they’re not as special as they thought!) 😀

Nobody can stop the OP calling herself whatever she wants. At time of posting, it's not illegal to call yourself vegan/vegetarian/flexitarian etc regardless of what you eat.
I could go out today calling myself a vegan if I wanted. I wouldn't because a) that would be really silly and b) nobody would offer me delicious meat to eat.
I do know what being a vegan or a vegetarian implies. I know about rennet, gelatine, Worcestershire sauce, fish sauce...
However, I also understand what people mean by "strict" or "relaxed".

My daughter's a vegan. She still gets called out by omnivores about eating avocados ("Will nobody think of the bees?!"); wearing leather shoes (daughter: "But I've had them for ten years old - is it helping the planet or an animal to throw them away?"*) and so forth.
She responds with with, "I'm doing my best. I'm sticking with my principles as far as I can and as far as is possible. It's better than doing nothing.".

The thing that really touched a nerve and would have put her off veganism - if anything could, which it transpired it couldn't - was fellow vegans spouting the above examples.

Anyway, that's by the by. But if a vegan doesn't mind other people describing themselves as "relaxed" (she's not fussed about this and doesn't see it as her role to educate everyone about her choices and police what people call themselves), is she a good enough vegan?
I know she's vegan. But if she's not getting overwrought about what other people choose to call themselves, is she not pulling her weight on behalf of vegans everywhere?

If you cut her, does she not bleed....?!**

*Okay. She could give them to a charity shop. And make bastard omnivores have the bad karma for wearing them. That'd learn 'em...

**Sorry. Strayed into The Merchant of Venice there.

PS
She would avoid eg dairy if offered it but politely. So, no, she's not someone giving mixed messages about what vegans eat.
But if another vegan chose to eat it rathet than say anything, she wouldn't die on that hill.

Dorsetdays
So the term is meaningless if anyone who occasionally eats a plant based meal can call themselves vegan? That's just redefining a word to mean 'you can use thisword to signal you might have made an ethical food choice and you want the world to know you're different and special'.

LaMarschallin
Of course it's not illegal but it somehow takes the piss when non-vegans claim they are vegans, want people to cater to their vegan choices (and rightly so because it's a dietary requirement) only to tuck into non-vegan chocolate cake because it doesn't really count and it's only a little bit. If I'd gone out my way to source all vegan substitutes and then someone happily tucked into non vegan food is think they're a little too into self-identification.

Your daughter sounds like she is a vegan. People being on at her for being vegan and eating a vegan diet are just being rude and awkward.

So the term is meaningless if anyone who occasionally eats a plant based meal can call themselves vegan?

Like 'woman' it's one of those social constructs which is just impossible to pin down :-)

If you are being strict and following the Vegan Society definition
"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."
Surely you aren't eating in a restaurant or cafe that isn't completely Vegan because the restaurant trade supports through its majority business the animal farming trade, and that only exists if customers eat there, so by using that business you are supporting it.

Your daughter sounds like she is a vegan. People being on at her for being vegan and eating a vegan diet are just being rude and awkward.

Thank you

However, I do know she feels it isn't her duty to educate others, and if a friend of hers who called themselves a vegan chose to eat something with eg milk in it so as not to be awkward, she wouldn't feel upset about the mixed-messages.
She politely tells people what she will/won't (her words: "That's different from can or cannot. I see that's for people with genuine allergies. That could be a killer!") eat, and checks if unsure.

She feels it's up to other vegans to explain for themselves.

There is no one definition, that’s kind of the point.

That’s where I fundamentally disagree with you.

There is no one definition, that’s kind of the point.

That’s where I fundamentally disagree with you.“

Yes, me too.

This has to take account of human nature.

People who are highly conscientious and diligent will follow rules like this more accurately. But a lot of people are just not very conscientious. They won't follow rules in practice (even while they may apparently agree with the rules in public).

So some people will be diligent when applying the rules for themselves and for others. Others will be much more casual about it.

If you really insist on following a vegan lifestyle 100% with no mistakes, you probably need to prepare all your own food. A lot of people aren't that bothered about applying random rules absolutely scrupulously.

If the mistakes could seriously harm you or if there was a law about it, then they might try harder. But unfortunately, we've all heard of people with serious allergies who have been served food that was unsafe for them.

In reality, you get plenty of 'monogamous' people who have affairs. You get lots of religious people who don't follow many rules if their church. It is probable that the Vegan Society attracts more rule-loving conscientious types who are happy to conform. Unfortunately, in the wider world of wild people, there are plenty of people who couldn't follow these rules for themselves, and won't for you either.

There’s no such thing as a ‘relaxed vegan’. You’re either vegan, or you’re not. You are NOT a vegan if you eat eggs, cheese and fish sauce. Because of people like you, there’s confusion of what vegan even is.

What you are, is a flexitarian. Or someone who eats ‘mainly’ plant based foods.

The definition is:
A way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

This definition clearly does not apply to you, hence why you think your friend who is actually vegan is ‘militant’. Your friend is not militant, you are just misinformed (and apparently very judgemental over your friends lifestyle choice).

She responds with with, "I'm doing my best. I'm sticking with my principles as far as I can and as far as is possible. It's better than doing nothing.

Your daughter sounds like an impressive woman LaMarschallin.

Imagine the poster had written, ‘My husband made a vegetable chilli for my friend who wears a t shirt describing herself as a militant vegan. Later I discovered he had put fish sauce in it for flavouring. AIBU not to tell my friend?’ Would she have got nearly 600 replies? I think not. She might even have got a few LTBs because her husband was careless.

The reality is that the number of people who fit the original definition of vegan is very small. In other countries where people eat a largely plant based diet for ethical or practical reasons, they won’t define themselves in ways set out by white English people who separated from The Vegetarian Society in the 1940s.

The Vegan Society itself has helped support things like Veganuary or promoting vegan products to non vegans on the basis that people may eventually make a bigger lifestyle change. Add to that people with dairy intolerances who look for vegan food in shops and restaurants but don’t have a philosophical objection to eating dairy products. On top of that we have food manufacturers and retailers increasingly trying to market food products as lifestyle choices. Interestingly they often call things ‘plant based’ as market research showed more people would buy them than if they were described as vegan.

Yes it’s frustrating to cook for people who are selectively meat and dairy free but isn’t it better for the planet and their health that people eat less meat and dairy?

hence why you think your friend who is actually vegan is ‘militant’. Your friend is not militant, you are just misinformed (and apparently very judgemental over your friends lifestyle choice).

I have been reading all the replies in the thread cheekywombat. A lifetime ago, the OP said she used the word militant as her friend has a t shirt with the words militant vegan on.

Be responsible for what you put into your own body

Except that this thread started because when we're not cooking for ourselves we have to trust that others will understand what we mean when we state a dietary preference. If someone told me they were 80% vegan I would ask for clarification. What are the exceptions? Do they mean they're a dietary vegan but will use wool, leather, glue, the new £5 notes which aren't even vegetarian let alone vegan? Do they mean they're vegan at home but not when out? Do they mean they eat steak every 5th meal? Do they mean they're vegan 4 days out of 5? Do they mean they eat eggs so long as the hens are pets? Honey maybe because they're not sure bees really count. Not too fussed about the bone char used in preparing sugar? Mainly vegan but will drink tea that you've milk in?

It's clear 80% vegan means they pick and choose certain bits of veganism but there's a pretty wide field in terms of which bits. It's all good, and I would just ask for clarity but it isn't clear precisely what it means. I eat fish occasionally, I've cut down on dairy, I mainly get eggs from friends with hens. However, I describe myself as pescetarian rather than 80% vegan because it seems to me to be the clearer definition of what I do, and quite readily accepted.

Sure terms change and it's good to discuss that. But if we don't have some baseline agreement about what a word means we're on very miry ground and risk things becoming close to meaningless.

Blimey, veganism seems to be up there with bog brushes in loos and footwear in guests houses, on here these days.

I'm a relaxed vegan! Oh, and a relaxed fruitarian, a relaxed vegetarian, a relaxed pescetarian and on a relaxed gluten free diet too!

OP, you are a vegetarian. There is no such thing as a relaxed vegan. My vegan friend would give you a certain look at 'relaxed vegan'

Vegetarians DO NOT EAT FISH!!!!!!!!

If you eat fish once a week or when you are at someone's house, to be polite, you are NOT vegetarian!!!!

If you cook with fish sauce you are not vegetarian. So the OP does NOT live in a veggie/vegan house at all.

Definitions matter! To misappropriate them dishonours the people to whom they genuinely apply.