... to not tell my militantly vegan friend she ate fish sauce?

[Snuffalo]

I am a relaxed vegan, as are one of my kids, the other kid and my partner are mostly vegetarian. Basically what that means for me is that I would never spend my own money on animal products, and I wouldn't use them in my own cooking, but if someone else prepares food for me or I'm a guest in someone's home I'll eat what's put in front of me, for the most part - I won't have a sausage or a burger at your barbecue, but I'll eat the pasta salad even if has cheese in it, and I'll have some of your birthday cake even if it's made with eggs.

Anyway, my friend Alice- who is a militant, rather than a relaxed, vegan

• was over and I heated up what I confidently thought to be vegan sweet potato and black bean chilli that my partner had made earlier in the week. I know the recipe backwards and forwards because one of us makes it at least once a month with zero animal products so I had no reason to suspect otherwise. I must say it was especially delicious this time - because, as it turns out, my partner added some fish sauce because he'd read somewhere that it's good in chilli. I didn't find out until today and now I'm wondering if I should tell Alice? I can't decide if, in her shoes, I would want to know or not. Would you?

Actually, can I have the recipe, please? It sounds yummy.

Ok, if I have misunderstood then I apologise Ohno. As I said in one my previous posts to you, your DH should be checking for pork in his sweets anyway.

Not looking for a dig.

I'd not tell her. You'll never hear the end of it if she's a militant one. But remember it, in case you ever have a massive fall out with her!
Some militant vegans and veggies can tell when there's meat product in something though,obviously she's not one of those.

I would want to know - and it would be a huge friendship-boost! I would so appreciate my friend being so honest with me, especially after the fact, that the trust would be bolstered hugely. It would mean a lot to me that my friend realised the importance and decided to tell me. I would wish I hadn't eaten it, of course, but I would appreciate the honesty more.

But the point is that if grumiosmum wants to say that she eats a mostly vegan diet it’s entirely up to her, not you.

See, it’s not that hard to understand.

I’m lactose intolerant Dorsetdays, which people are happy to accept, so if I’m offered dairy, such as ice cream, my explanation is accepted without further comment. Saying I’m a vegan just give the green light for mocking, questioning “do you wear leather shoes?being the favourite” You only have to read some of the comments on here to understand the kind of stuff that’s said. When you’ve listened to that shit for over 30yrs, you do get a tad jaded.

“Do you wear leather shoes?” Being the favourite *

But the point is that if grumiosmum wants to say that she eats a mostly vegan diet it’s entirely up to her, not you.

See, it’s not that hard to understand

She’s welcome to say she eats a mostly vegan diet. Personally I don’t have a problem with anyone saying that and I doubt most vegans would have a problem with that. It’s claiming to BE a vegan, that’s annoying a lot of people, including meat eaters.

But isn’t it better to challenge that perception by being tolerant to others in return? There’s an awful lot of name calling and silliness in this thread aimed at those who don’t follow a ‘proper’ vegan lifestyle which again, perpetuates that image and seems totally counterproductive to what you’re aiming to achieve.

I get people assuming I’m gf because it’s ‘fashionable’ and a trendy eating fad. I still don’t let it bother me 🤷🏼‍♀️

Don't tell her - same principle as someone confessing to a finished affair - it makes the confessor feel better and the peron who was in blissful ignorance, very unhappy. Serves no good purpose.

Don’t let it annoy you, simple.

Move on and find something more important to get annoyed about than someone applying a word in a way you don’t agree with.

You haven’t got your terms correct OP. It’s not relaxed vegan and militant vegan, it’s considerate person (mostly vegan) and obnoxious person (vegan).

She can't un-eat it so what is there to be gained by telling her?

@grumiosmum

*We had a vegan dinner tonight.

Am I allowed to say that, vegan police?

(whole grain rice, red lentil dahl with mushrooms & onions, & roasted turnips)*

Yes. Because your meal didn't contain animal products. Just like a vegan diet.

I still don't understand why some people seem so unwilling to accept that being a vegan is not a sliding scale. It is binary. Yes, vegans ( like the OP's friend) may find out they have accidentally eaten something containing animal products but to make a conscious decision that in some circumstances you do eat animal products, you are not a vegan. There is nothing wrong with not being vegan.

I have friends who have gone vegan and then stopped for a host of totally legitimate reasons. They don't describe themselves as vegan now.

There is no judgement or superiority. Just reality.

And I don't understand why it makes people so angry that they people feel they shouldn't identify as vegan when they go against the primary principle of veganism which is not to consume animal products.

Because it’s not up to you to dictate how other people choose to describe their choices/lifestyle etc. The word isn’t trademarked and clearly for some people it helps them to describe what they want it too.

We get that you don’t agree. It’s not going to change that though so I’m not sure what your aim is here.

So, just checking. Are some people saying that they can decide what words mean- that there is no accepted meaning for the word “vegan”?

The word isn’t trademarked

No, but it has a clear, universal, undisputed meaning. Its simply false for the OP to describe herself as vegan, relaxed or otherwise. As others have said, it’s binary, in or out.

It sounds like she’s trying to commandeer the ‘virtue points’ of being a vegan, without fully committing to it. Which is why it’s getting people’s backs up.

I sometimes eat food that’s vegan. I often eat food that’s vegetarian. I eat fish. And occasionally I eat meat. I see no reason to give the way I eat food I eat a name.

Try reading this and perhaps you’ll understand how being less dogmatic about the dictionary definition of a word can actually help further the very aim you’re surely striving to achieve;

www.vegan.com/what/

Or for speed....this salient point;

CAN YOU BE “MOSTLY VEGAN”?
Here are some phrases I frequently use in order to nudge people toward plant-based lifestyles:

80 percent vegan
vegan at home
mostly vegan
vegan until 6:00
Phrases like these really piss off the vegan fundamentalists. They’ll proclaim you can’t be a little bit vegan any more than you can be a little bit pregnant. Sometimes they’ll even feign an inability to understand what “mostly vegan” or “80 percent vegan” is supposed to mean.

But I presume a functioning level of intelligence on the part of my listener, and if you can’t figure out that 80 percent vegan means eating vegan around 80 percent of the time, you’ve got much bigger problems than how I define the word vegan.

@BertrandRussell We all know exactly what VEGAN means.
I am not a vegan - because we know what 'not' means, we know what I eat (lots of chickens).
I have a friend who is an ex vegan, so we know what they used to eat, compared to what they eat now.
We also surely know what relaxed means?
This whole thread is about a relaxed vegan. She wasn't claiming to be a vegan per se.

OP: I am a relaxed vegan, maybe in any month I'll eat half an egg and a teaspoon of grated cheese.
Militant vegans: BUT YOU ARE NOT A VEGAN, YOU LIAR.
OP: I know, I explained.
Militant vegans: BUT YOU ARE NOT A VEGAN, YOU VIRTUE SIGNALLER

And so on for 30 pages

if you can’t figure out that 80 percent vegan means eating vegan around 80 percent of the time

I don’t think anyone struggles to understand what that means.

But there are already words for that pattern of eating (vegetarian or omnivore depending on what’s being eaten the other 20% of the time), so why does the OP need to commandeer and qualify a word that doesn’t apply to her?

For this reason perhaps?...

When it comes to deciding whether or not somebody is vegan, my answer is usually, “who cares?” I want to spend my limited time protecting animals—not getting into endless arguments over who gets to call themselves a vegan. If someone eats nothing but plants but wears a leather belt, I think you and I have more important things to do than to protest that he’s not a real vegan.

[The term "vegan"] has a clear, universal, undisputed meaning.

I trained as a linguist. There is no such thing as a word that has a "clear, universal, undisputed meaning". None. Semantics are ALWAYS fuzzy.

Or this reason...

Some people seem to base their entire identity around being vegan. Their way of framing the ethics of eating is often strikingly similar to religious fundamentalists. They’re invariably inflexible about definitions, since they want to keep the meaning of vegan as exclusionary as possible. Veganism becomes all about reinforcing their personal sense of identity.

No fundamentalist sect will ever take over the world. Invariably the requirements to become part of their sect are so restrictive that it will always rule out 99 percent of the population. If vegan diets are to become the norm, we need to use this word with the intention of inviting and including rather than excluding.

I want to spend my limited time protecting animals—not getting into endless arguments over who gets to call themselves a vegan

At the risk of stating the obvious, if people like the OP are really keen to avoid the arguments then there’s a very simple solution. Don’t use the word to self describe.

I’m not vegan. I agree it’s a good thing for anyone to cut down on animal products. But why you need an inaccurate descriptor for that beyond ‘I try not to eat a lot of animal products’ I can’t fathom.