To want someone to explain 3 things about Brexit

[Bearbehind]

If I could understand these 3 things I might get my head round why we are persuing it:-

• What countries and products will we suddenly be able to trade that we couldn’t before?

• How will we be better off by losing frictionless access to the worlds largest trading bloc in return for gaining less than 1% of GDP we send to the EU?

• Even though we don’t want a border in NI and the EU don’t, we can’t avoid one under WTO rules so how is that going to be addressed?

And MN, please don’t move this to the Brexit corner

@greenlloon - Who was manning the checkpoints is irrelevant. you cant be serious

Perhaps you could explain the relevance of who was manning the checkpoints? I have been stopped at various checkpoints over the years. They have all been for a particular purpose. Some have been manned by police, some by customs and excise. The foot and mouth checkpoints were operated by the Gardaí (police force), with additional support from the army. The army are often used to support operations in an emergency (e.g. extreme weather events, foot and mouth outbreak etc). The army is not only used for military purposes.

And both of those suggestions have gone down so well with the house of commons.......

Bearbehind asked and I answered! I think the options I've set out are the only ones, or defaulting on the GFA. My prediction would ultimately be for reunification.

@FiddlesticksAkimbo - Bearbehind asked and I answered! I think the options I've set out are the only ones, or defaulting on the GFA.

I agree with you there but unfortunately, the HoC has vetoed both of those options so how do you think the issue will be resolved? Reunification is not an option at the moment, the UK remaining with the CU and the SM has been rejected, imposing a border in the Irish Sea has been rejected. That only leaves a hard border and defaulting on the GFA. Do you think any of the candidates for tory leader will take a different approach that will result in one of the two options you suggested?

OP I don’t think you are going to get any answers, because I don’t think there are any. If there were then someone would have come up with a sensible answer in the last 3 years.

You’re right 12, I guess I just keep hoping that people will start to think, if only to themselves initially, ‘hang on, I can’t actually think of a single answer to the first 2 questions which is likely to become a reality based on the situation we are now in - why are we doing this?’

Yes Fiddlesticks you did answer but Irish reunification isn’t an option and i’m pretty sure that quite a few people in NI might have something to say about this. You cannot just tell the people of NI that they are Irish and not British because it’s just too complicated. At the moment we have peace after many many years of unrest and killings. I cannot for the life of me understand why it isn’t the priority to protect this peace.

The economic case for Brexit is outlined quite clearly by Kate Hoey here:

You cannot just tell the people of NI that they are Irish and not British because it’s just too complicated.

Although the Home Office is currently assigning British Citizenship by default to those born in Northern Ireland and identifying as Irish and not British.

It’s depressing isn’t it helmet

Totally grim.

how do you think the issue will be resolved?

Above my pay grade! Those are the possible border options and Britain must choose one.

(The reason why the backstop is interesting is that it calls the bluff of those who say that there are other solutions. Anyone who thought there was genuinely an alternative answer to the border would happily embrace the backstop, safe in the knowledge that it wouldn't be needed.)

Perhaps that should read ‘shouldn’t’. The government’s lack of regard for such a delicate situation is astounding

@Helmetbymidnight - The economic case for Brexit is outlined quite clearly by Kate Hoey here

Just in case anyone doesn't want to watch the video - the answer is she cannot produce anything that suggests the UK will be better off or even remain as well off as the status quo.

@ContinuityError - Although the Home Office is currently assigning British Citizenship by default to those born in Northern Ireland and identifying as Irish and not British.

Which contravenes the GFA. And they wonder why we don't trust the UK to hold up their end of the bargain...

@FiddlesticksAkimbo - Above my pay grade! Those are the possible border options and Britain must choose one.

Unfortunately, it seems to above the pay grade of everyone in the british government too.

What is democratic about upholding a vote which only had a very slim majority at the time and now there is more information available

This is your problem right here. This is the fundamental problem - you have to accept that you lost. It didn’t go your way? Tough. It was a democratic vote. People voted. Leave won. It doesn’t matter how small the majority was. That’s it.

Remoaners try to bolster their argument with patronising nonsense like ‘people didn’t know enough’ ‘people were misled’ ‘people succumbed to propaganda’ or even ‘Leave voters are racist, xenophobic, bigoted, thick, etc’ - none of them are true, but it suits Remoaners purposes, they think it bolsters their argument and makes the result less valid, so they’ll keep saying it. Apparently it’s acceptable to undermine the implementation of a democratic vote if it didn’t go your way.

I voted Remain and I bitterly regret it - and it’s the behaviour of the Remain side that swayed me to support Brexit! I’m ashamed to be in the company of people who think democracy only works one way - that they don’t have to accept a democratic result when they don’t like it, that they’re entitled to moan, whine and tell outright lies about other voters in order to frustrate that democratic result being implemented. I wasn’t happy with the result, but so what? I want to live in a democracy, therefore the result must be respected.

that they don’t have to accept a democratic result when they don’t like it, that they’re entitled to moan

For what it's worth I don't think we're leaving!

@FiddlesticksAkimbo

Neither do I!

‘Above my pay grade’ - exactly. It’s above the pay grade of the majority of people which is why the ‘will of the people’ (or a small majority of people) is such a mockery. Instead, listen to the people who are qualified. The vast majority of economists say that Brexit is a bad idea, that we will be poorer, that we are better off staying put. Or listen to what isn’t said and watch. Watch industries leave the country or shut down.

isabell I’m not interested in who won

I want to understand what winning entails.

And it isn’t just getting to say ‘We won’ - that’s exactly the problem here.

‘Winning’ so far consists of being able to make trade deals with countries no one can name, being worse off for no tangible benefit and breaching an international treaty just because it suits us.

@IsabellaLinton - yes, there was a vote. Yes, leave won. Nobody is arguing with that. The issue is not that leave won, the issue is that many on the leave side seem to be blind to the realities of leaving. There are two choices: Leave and uphold the GFA (this is what the WA does) or leave and break the GFA.

The UK signed up to an internationally binding peace treaty. Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that the first of these two options should be chosen. However, the HoC has repeatedly voted against doing this. They have also voted against leaving and breaking the GFA.

The options are:

1. Leave and comply with the GFA
2. Leave and break the GFA
3. Revoke and remain in the EU

The HoC have voted against 1 and 2. So if you can't leave and comply with the GFA and you can't leave and break the GFA, what do you suggest is done?

Yes, Leave won and broke the law in order to do so

Now the OP wants to know exactly what it is we've won, as it appears to be a bucket of fermented vomit.

Given that the government has spent nearly three years arsing about like demented children on cocaine trying to sort out exactly how to implement this vote, some of us think it might just possibly be a good idea to check that The People might still consider this shit show to be their will...

You won't get answers, OP. There aren't any. I think it's entirely reasonable to ask that people who support Brexit explain how it's going to work. But leave voters can't bear to be put on the spot. It exposes that they had no plan from the beginning and still don't have one now. Instead they simply want to take the UK into some unknown, impoverished future for reasons that can be easily demonstrated as stupid, xenophobic or both.

Those who don't want to leave should never give up demanding answers as to HOW THIS IS GOING TO BENEFIT THE UK. If leave voters don't like it they should go fuck themselves. They don't get to fuck the UK over completely without providing some sort of explanation.

What countries and products will we suddenly be able to trade that we couldn’t before?

None.

How will we be better off by losing frictionless access to the worlds largest trading bloc in return for gaining less than 1% of GDP we send to the EU?

We won't be better off.

Even though we don’t want a border in NI and the EU don’t, we can’t avoid one under WTO rules so how is that going to be addressed?

With unicorns and fairy dust.

I don’t need reminding - I still feel the same. If you voted Leave and it results in you losing your job why should I care?

They keep telling us they knew exactly what they were voting for. So why should we care that they lost their job? Unless of course the reality is that they didn't know what they were voting for, they thought they were voting for other people to lose their jobs.

Judging by today’s antics, those in the Tory leadership battle have no idea what’s going to happen either.