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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be deeply saddened by a teenager being euthanised **Upsetting content - warning added by MNHQ** ***MNHQ further note that the details of this story are disputed***

337 replies

TheHorseOnSeventhAvenue · 04/06/2019 17:59

I am greatly aware of our rights and understand autonomy but as far as I can see this young Dutch girl, Noa, did not end her own life but was assisted.

My heart goes out to her and her family but this is my absolute reason why euthanasia should not be supported.

OP posts:
IvanaPee · 04/06/2019 20:07

The level of virtue signalling on this thread is ridiculous.

Yep!

crazyasafox · 04/06/2019 20:09

@SuePerbly please ignore the people bashing you. I am really pleased you managed to come back from the brink, and I don't see you saying 'well if I can, why couldn't SHE?' as some people are implying. All you're doing is sharing your story. Flowers

Some people come back from deep depression, and are fine. Some come back but are never quite the same, and some never come back and have to end it as they see no way out.

People saying 'well she could have made it back if she has had the right level of mental health care' are pretty ignorant of mental health issues. For some, returning back to their former self, and finding peace again is not possible.

People need to open their mind(s) and realise everyone is different.

cranstonmanor · 04/06/2019 20:09

@Happydaughterhappymum
This is NOT the fault of the Netherlands. In spite of the false headline she did not receive euthanasia, she committed suicide. You can't get euthanasia for mental health problems in the Netherlands. You need to have a terminal disease with a view of endless suffering till you die before euthanasia is granted.

SuePerbly · 04/06/2019 20:10

JessieTalamasca

Sue, you're not 'offering hope' the girl is already dead

I am aware of that. Other people reading this who are struggling presumably are not though.

You're making assumptions and using your personal stories to make moral judgements on other people and then calling them 'arrogant' and other things when they don't agree with you or with personal stories being the basis for ethical policy

A) I was pointing out the arrogance of a previous poster calling others on this post arrogant.
B) I absolutely don't agree that my personal story should be used as a basis for ethical policy. I would prefer it to be based on evidence based practice and research by mental health professionals.

Having concerns about the ethics of what has happened to Noa, how such a situation would translate into the Mental Health Act/Mental Capacity Act within the UK, and pointing out that lots of women can and do get better, is not personal.

However, I truly apologise for any upset caused. I apologise for saying that I am ok about my rape now. I didn't realise it was such a heinous thing to say. I feel ashamed for being okay now. Sorry Flowers

crazyasafox · 04/06/2019 20:10

@Kittyc4 that is wonderful that you recovered, but it doesn't happen for EVERYONE.

Original poster
TheHorseOnSeventhAvenue · 04/06/2019 20:10

A PP up thread mentioned intervention. I absolutely do not believe this girl got what she needed in terms of therapy, medication, help. I do not know whether her abusers were ever brought to justice or whether she would ever feel safe

BUT - I will ask all those posting, if it were your daughter, little sister, niece would you let her go ahead with your blessing?

OP posts:
Asta19 · 04/06/2019 20:10

I knew a young woman who was sexually abused. She ended up a drug addict and she had a heart attack at 25 (linked to the drug use) and died. However I know others who have come through it and managed to have a life they are happy with. They never forget, because you never can, but the pain becomes manageable. I once read something that really stuck with me, it said:
“Suicide happens when the level of pain exceeds the capacity to deal with the pain”
And I think this is very true. A lot of us live with various types of pain, mental and physical but if it is manageable, then we can find happiness. Even if it never fully goes away.

What I struggle with is that no one was able to do anything to make this girls pain more manageable. She clearly had no hope that this would ever happen. I can’t speak for the Netherlands but I know that MH services in this country have been cut to the bone. It’s horrific and sad.

MilkGoatee · 04/06/2019 20:11

She wasn't allowed to elect euthanasia - they said she was too young, and had to a) finish her trauma treatment, and b) wait until her brain was fully matured or at least be 21.
She was suffering from PTSD, anorexia, and other co-morbid mental health issues.
She decided to refuse eating and drinking and ultimately, they decided to not intervene in that process due to reasons best known to those around here (medical staff, parents).
Not sure why people say there are no institutions in the Netherlands, there are. They fall under GGZ www.ggznederland.nl/pagina/english

UndertheCedartree · 04/06/2019 20:11

RIP, Noa Flowers The thing that stands out for me is that there are no mental health clinics for teens in the Netherlands - so sad. If there was maybe she could have recovered and had a life worth living.

adaline · 04/06/2019 20:12

Many people on here have stated they felt suicidal at 17 and are eternally grateful they never succeeded - I'm not sure why their experiences and feelings are being dismissed so readily.

cranstonmanor · 04/06/2019 20:13

This headline is false, she did not get euthanasia. She decided to commit suicide by not eating and drinking.

HaroldsSocalledBluetits · 04/06/2019 20:13

Yes, I think we are all acutely aware that some people never "recover" (whether through lack of care etc). However there is a big difference between acknowledging that on the one hand and on the other having medical professionals taking the word of a distressed, traumatised child that she will be one of those people and therefore it's ok that she dies.

Asta19 · 04/06/2019 20:13

OP, I will answer. No I absolutely couldn’t give my blessing for this. The only situation where I can see that I would, would be if they were terminally ill and in a lot of pain. And even then it would rip me to shreds to do so, but I wouldn’t want them to suffer.

I cannot even begin to imagine how this girls parents must be feeling.

RunningFeisty · 04/06/2019 20:14

How dare you judge her given the circumstances.

You should be ashamed of yourself, you are very unreasonable.

SuePerbly · 04/06/2019 20:15

IvanaPee

It’s lovely that you want to offer hope and support to anyone listening, but everyone else is discussing the girl and the issues around euthanasia

Apologies again. I honestly thought I had read other posters saying how terrible they had felt MH wise, with others saying they were now happy and glad they hadn't killed themselves. Obviously, I misread those posts Flowers

cranstonmanor · 04/06/2019 20:15

This headline is false, she did not get euthanasia. She decided to commit suicide by not eating and drinking.

Gosh I hope people read this. I am pro euthanasia but this false reporting can harm the practice. In the Netgerlands it won't be granted unless you have a terminal disease.

NoTheresa · 04/06/2019 20:16

Me too, OP. I just cannot get my head around it and I daren’t even try. Utterly appalling.

AnActualWoman · 04/06/2019 20:16

Laila I've read your posts.

It is clear there is a lack of understanding of mental health issues and how complex they can be. Sometimes the mind is just too broken to fix, and imo the only person who can really judge that is the individual.

UndertheCedartree · 04/06/2019 20:16

@sueperbly - it's a great step forward for you that you have accepted your rape - you shouldn't let anyone make you feel bad about it

LailaDay · 04/06/2019 20:22

I will ask all those posting, if it were your daughter, little sister, niece would you let her go ahead with your blessing?

If I had had to see my beautiful, strong daughter or niece go through every kind of treatment for six years, be admitted a total of 21 times to a mental health clinic for suicide attempts and psychosis, get fed by a stomach tube for a year and be put into a coma to get her back to a normal weight, spent every evening, night and morning in an isolation cell for three months because if she had access to anything at all she would try to kill herself, be refused euthanasia and told she had to wait until age 21 - then I can only imagine I would be glad to see her go on her own terms and be left alone instead of doctors instigating another round of force-feeding.

Because that is what happened!

Yes, the state of mental healthcare in many countries (including the UK) is appalling. But there was no euthanasia here, and no "death on an adolescent whim". You are doing a massive disservice to the suffering of her family by framing it in either of those ways. Noa had been very, very ill for many, many years, also before being raped.

IvanaPee · 04/06/2019 20:24

@sueperbly you misunderstand me.

I am not for one second saying that it’s not great that you recovered. I sincerely mean that.

I too have managed to “recover” from horrific, serial rape and abuse.

But even at my darkest times I never stopped eating in the hopes that I would die. I never begged to end my life.

There was always something...as a PP says; my capacity to deal with it was always JUST on the right side of the pain becoming overwhelming.

That wasn’t the case for Noa and the idea of her suffering in such a hellish existence because someone else decided she should just keep trying to get better...it’s not fair.

She didn’t deserve to live in that much pain to satisfy someone else’s idea of morality.

That’s why I say your story is only yours. Perhaps there are similarities but all of our traumas are specific to us. And only us. So we can’t judge someone else by our own experiences. And nor should we.

Sakura7 · 04/06/2019 20:26

@SuePerbly

You are absolutely speaking sense, from the perspective of going through this horrible experience. I agree with you, and I'm sure many others do as well. I cannot for the life of me understand why certain posters are attacking you, it's utterly ridiculous. Please ignore them.

IvanaPee · 04/06/2019 20:27

Nobody is attacking anyone. Don’t be so unnecessarily dramatic. 🙄

HiJuice · 04/06/2019 20:28

Can't believe that the majority of posters on here unquestioningly believe whatever they read in the daily mail! A little bit of research will tell you that firstly this was not euthanasia and secondly there was sustained treatment over years.
No wonder our country is in the state it's in. People seem to want to believe that a developed country has no mental health facilities and that 17 year olds with depression are routinely euthanased with no attempt at helping them. You must be seriously stupid! Does common sense not tell you that this is unlikely and that you need to check it out further?
Are you the same people who believe the 350 million on the bus?

Sakura7 · 04/06/2019 20:30

Many people on here have stated they felt suicidal at 17 and are eternally grateful they never succeeded - I'm not sure why their experiences and feelings are being dismissed so readily.

This ^

How dare you judge her given the circumstances.

Not one person here is judging her, people are questioning whether a society should allow this to happen to a 17 year old.