To think a real friendship can take some honesty

[AliceRR]

I suppose what I’m asking is, is it ever a good idea to tell a friend if they’ve annoyed us or upset us, where we are upset enough that we otherwise might not speak to them for a while?

I have a situation with a friend where I’m a bit upset with her. She seems largely unaware and is talking about meeting up. I don’t want to meet up and wasn’t sure whether to be honest about how I feel (as nicely as I can), make an excuse for not meeting up, just not reply for a bit and maybe I’ll feel better in a few days / weeks or just “suck it up” and be a good friend to her.

I haven’t said what I’m upset about as it’s not a massive thing (it’s more about her not being v supportive) and the AIBU isn’t about what’s happened, it’s about how we handle a situation where we are annoyed or upset by a friend.

I believe that in a good friendship we should be able to be honest but I expect I’m in the minority.

I'm very sorry for the dreadful loss of your daughter.

I think Bluntness' posts are excellent.

There seems to me to be an aspect of working out your grief around this. You say you don't really want to see her, but if it were as simple as that (we all have the right to choose who we surround ourselves with, and at times of such loss, IMO, we have it more than ever) you wouldn't have started this thread. It does occur to me - and I mean all this in the gentlest possible way - that it seems you set great store by being OK with being around pregnant women and babies (I believe many in your position could not have gone to see your other friend, been shopping etc, just two weeks after such a loss) and that possibly you are constructing a situation in your mind where this friend has proved herself unworthy of your friendship, which lets you off the hook of having to see her. (I appreciate I may be entirely wrong here, but there is something more going on here than simply realising she's not the friend you want any more). After what you have been through, it's absolutely OK to not want to see her because she is pregnant. Honestly it is. You don't need to find her guilty of a friendship-ending sin (and objectively I do think you are being harsh on her, holding her to very exacting standards) in order to justify it.

I have some experience of the havoc baby loss can wreak in friendships and it's inevitably a horrible tangled mess. Be lenient with her (which doesn't mean you have to see her) and gentle on yourself. You're still in the eye of the storm.

and wouldn’t have considered her a friend but she has been texting me at least once a week to ask how I am, if I want to chat then to let her know, to let her know if I want to meet up or whatever. Her first text even said she knows we’re not best friends or anything but she’s here

You see, as per my first post, i do think that this is partly to do with points of view and how different people handle support. I would have found the above (your quote) to be incredibly, incredibly intrusive, stressful and inappropriate - yet you found it lovely and supportive. Neither of us is wrong, just very different in terms of expectations. If this is right with your friend, you are different from her in terms of expectations, so what it comes down to is whether or not there are other things about the friendship which you value. Going back to your AIBU I would be honest with her if she weren't pregnant but I am not sure i would if she is pregnant as it is difficult to know the affect on her and also her hormones affecting her judgement.

Unfortunately I’ve experienced exactly what you’re going through OP. It was a horrific time and some “friends “ just didn’t step up to the plate. My bridesmaid actually. We are no longer friends as I just couldn’t get past her total lack of support. She made a half arsed attempt at an apology and vowed to be a better friend but never followed through. The damage was done at that point. I haven’t seen her in 3 years.

AliceRR - I’ve read all your updates and your thought process - you’re absolutely not being unreasonable in anything you’re saying, for all the reasons you’ve given.

Sorry for your loss I cant imagine what you have been through, that's so sad. I think in the last few months if she didn't know what to say she could at least have sent a text saying' thinking of you' but to me no contact is unacceptable. My MIL died in November, whilst she was in hospital I got a message from my sister telling me what she would like me to buy her for Christmas! Not once had she asked how we all were or how MIL was. When I pulled her up on it her reasoning was she was waiting for me to say I was ready to talk. Whilst my response was why would I turn to somebody who hadn't asked once how we all coping when I had friends texting/calling every day. I cant see our relationship ever recovering from that tbh I think its selfish.

I am so sorry for your loss.

I have to say, I agree with bluntness completely. I think your friend's behaviour was actually reasonable and that she probably cares about you a lot more than you think. I don't think people turn up to invitations simply out of politeness, not as a rule anyway. Most people are too busy to do that. If she's a track record of showing up, that means something, I would say.

also, yy to everything xobni says

I think in the last few months if she didn't know what to say she could at least have sent a text saying' thinking of you' but to me no contact is unacceptable

This is my thinking but I do see why she might not have contacted me. It might not be good enough though.

possibly you are constructing a situation in your mind where this friend has proved herself unworthy of your friendship, which lets you off the hook of having to see her. (I appreciate I may be entirely wrong here, but there is something more going on here than simply realising she's not the friend you want any more)

No this isn’t he case. I was annoyed with her before she said she was pregnant. I was annoyed that I had to contact her first but for all I know something was going on with her (like my other friend who seems to me to be depressed). When she replied I got the sense that wasn’t the case but take on board why her being pregnant could have led her to stay away as well. I was more annoyed with her reply too as I’ve explained above as it didn’t make sense to me.

And as for why I posted it was more out of curiosity as I did discuss this with another friend as to what I should do. They agreed with me that she had handled things badly (they are a friend who would have said if they didn’t) but suggested not saying anything. In this situation I think now it’s probably right not to say anything but it got me thinking as to how we deal with situations with friends where we are annoyed. I said that at the start. It wasn’t about whether I was unreasonable or she was. I think in reality probably neither of us is but we’re both experiencing very different things now. That doesn’t mean I have to think she’s been a good friend. I just don’t think she has.

When I say she attends things out of politeness I’m not sure what I mean but she’s the kind of friend I have a very sort of “organised” friendship with. I have friends who I text every day. I share things with that I find funny or that annoy me or just have mundane chats about stuff but we don’t have that kind of friendship. Still I thought she might text to ask how I am at some point after the funeral.

I don’t want to keep repeating myself or labouring the point. I think I’ve explained why I’m upset but I can see both sides. I’m sure she can too.

She may well not see both sides at all,some people are very self absorbed. As you have friends that have called/text, took an interest into your well being I would concentrate on those friendships.(But I know I'm not a very forgiving person!).

FWIW, having been sort-of in your position (very sort-of, and the picture was complicated by previous loss on the other side of this too), I never felt able to say anything while the friend was pregnant (or even really thereafter, tbh, but the pregnancy was definitely an inhibiting factor).

If the friendship is not what you need, let it go; there is no obligation here. It does seem to me that you feel the need to let her know the full extent of your hurt. What would you hope to hear from her in response? (You obv don't need to answer that here, but you might consider putting the question to yourself).

People are fallible and act in ways we can't comprehend, particularly when our own emotion is stretched and/or heightened. That doesn't mean you need to stay friends. It doesn't mean she is necessarily condemnable, either.

Yes, friendships need honest, or else is just an acquaintance.

Look, you've been friends long enough to know what she's like and what your dynamic is.
Irrespective of the 'reasons' this is the point that you are at now the fact is I feel as I do and I don’t want to see the friend. She hasn’t been the kind of friend that I want to invest my time in.

Instead of feeling guilty and gaslighting yourself about whether you've been mistaken in your perception of things, just honour your own feelings and self.
This friendship isn't working for you.
You are not responsible for her feelings, you don't need to find reasons to end things and you're not responsible for maintaining a friendship that doesn't work for you.

I would just distance myself from her and over time it will all fizzle out on its own.

Plus she's already turned this back round on you - justifying her lack of contact as being due to your loss.
It was the first thing she said when eventually you contacted her!

Somebody who is so quick to deflect any personal responsibility, shows no empathy or awareness and leaves you confused and questioning yourself is not really a friend - are they?

Very sorry for your loss, OP. That must have been and still be very hard.

No situation is the same but I can say that when I was a wee bit younger my partner was very sick for a long time before he died. Didn’t make the shock or the need for support any easier. Neither my friends nor my family were any source of support for me and seemed to either disappear or pretend nothing had happened.

After the shock had worn off I found myself very angry. But with time I stopped being angry. They just didn’t have the emotional maturity to be supportive. I hope I do. My relationships with all of them are different now, besides the many people I don’t have any contact with at all anymore. I made an effort to reconnect with some despite everything but mostly people are still absent. I don’t feel their loss. And I don’t bear a grudge.

Point is, if they were any kind of friend they would have said something. So nothing was really lost but the perception of friendship. That was in my mind, not theirs.

Focus your energies on those people who do make the effort.

Speaking from the other side of this, I got pregnant when a friend was going through IVF. Apparently I told her in the wrong way and I got a blistering letter in the post (this was before email) that ended our friendship.

The reality was I had no experience with IVF, no idea how to tell her (there was no internet back then that let you ask strangers), but there was absolutely no malice in anything I did. I was just young and inexperienced.

So if it were me, I would look at the way she has behaved over the whole friendship. If she is usually someone who behaves well, then I would move on. Her own pregnancy may have made her appreciate even more acutely what your loss means, possibly making it harder for her to deal with. Plus your own grief will be affecting how you feel.

@doskant I am very sorry for your loss also and I think you’re right

@LittleRedMushroom How did you tell your friend you were pregnant? I think IVF / infertility is slightly different but I don’t know. I know some people in my position can not handle pregnancy and babies.

The thing is she hasn’t been in touch for months when she knows what I’m dealing with. She might not know much about IVF either before she saw my little girl’s coffin go into the ground so she must have had some idea I might be feeling low.

The way she told me about her pregnancy also doesn’t make sense as she seemed to be saying she expected it might be difficult for me to hear and yet she prioritised telling me that over asking how I am.

I agree IVF is very different to losing a baby, but both events are incredibly stressful and isolating and there is a similar potential for friends and family to respond in ways that people find upsetting or inappropriate.

All I am trying to say is that people make mistakes when dealing with such difficult situations. I did with my friend but it was due to inexperience/stupidity, it was not malice or deliberate.

So I'm suggesting that you judge your friend on the preceding years of friendship, not this alone.

@LittleRedMushroom I understand if you don’t want to share what happened in your situation but I suppose what I’m saying this is not really about how she told me she’s pregnant. It’s about her not being there for me. Maybe I do need to consider everything but then “they” do say it’s times like this when you learn who your friends are.

I’ll just see how i feel. I’m not under pressure to do anything now.

Would also like to add that there were people in my life at the time who seemed to have no qualms with telling me about their exciting engagements/weddings/new relationships. Was painful to hear at times given my loss but I was genuinely happy for them. Just sad for me.

So I think there’s a way to share your good news with someone who’s grieving and still be respectful. It’s not like I didn’t want others to be happy or that you want others to not be pregnant, is it. The worst is the radio silence. I honestly think it’s a cop out rather than people trying to protect you. I think some people just can’t or don’t want to deal with loss in general and would rather pretend it doesn’t happen. It’s sad but far more to do with them than you

I think she's behaved very badly not being in touch. It doesn't matter (imo) the 'turmoil' she might've been wondering how to spill her good news, her actual friend needed her. Death is a time when lots of people are too scared to get in touch so that's when you need good friends the most! It might be 'difficult' for the friend - it's devastating for the OP!

I haven't been in your situation but I know people who have who also had 'good' friends completely disappear. It's rubbish.

I have had IVF and had people struggle to tell me they were pregnant but they did at least tell me. If they'd completely pulled away I'd have been very hurt, just because it was 'difficult' for them. Pah.

I have some sympathy for what's going on in their heads but it should be a five min mental discussion of 'right, it's going to be hard to talk to her when I have this good news I don't want to share yet, but she's got to be really struggling so I have to be brave and get in touch anyway'.

Or at least realise your mistake later.

I'll happily share what happened with my friend, but it's not very relevant.
I delayed telling her until I started to show (hoping she'd have some good news by then). We had arranged to go out for drinks but of course she would have spotted I wasn't drinking. I phoned her DH to warn him in advance and ask his advice. I told her in my home before we went out with other people.
I do remember she never said congratulations or anything nice to me, the conversation was only about how this affected her.
She was angry because I told her when she was away from her DH (though in reality I never saw her DH) and angry that we went out for drinks after with people she did not know very well as she felt isolated.
She then sent me the letter where she was very upset and accused me of being selfish and inconsiderate. I never saw her again, but I do know she went on to have a child.
There was probably more to it than that but it was over 20 years ago so I honestly can't remember that much detail.
I do know she was a very nice person (and I like to think I was too), I just got it horribly wrong.
But at that time I do not know how I could have actually got it right. I did not know anyone else going through IVF. There were no internet resources or forums to read up on it. I guess I could have asked at the GP to see if they had a leaflet, or gone to the library to get a book out.

Anyway, that's my story. As I said, not relevant to this thread other than being an example of a major friendship fuck up that was completely unintentional.

I'll happily share what happened with my friend, but it's not very relevant.

Sorry I hope I didn’t force you to share. You mentioned it hence I thought you thought it relevant. I can see why your friend was upset but I we’ll see your point about how it’s one “fuck up”.

In my case I have said congratulations to her and I asked her how far along she is. It is her most recent text that I haven’t replied to but when I do reply (I think I will give her another chance) I will ask her more about her pregnancy and don’t plan to make it all about me. Your friend shouldn’t have done that but it sounds like she was really struggling.

I'm very sorry for your loss Alice

FWIW I don't think either of you have been unreasonable, however you might not be the right friends for each other at the moment.

I think in reality you are going to find it very hard to consider this friendship to be in any way meaningful after this.

There are very few times in our lives, thankfully, that we will be in such pain, and we need the love and support from our friends. It is not so much to ask.

This is not about her pregnancy, this is about the complete absence of support from her during what has to be one of the worst moments of your life.
Sending texts, calling you to check on you is all she had to do. The idea that you needed ‘space’ or she had to discuss her news with you is a red herring.

She knew she should have been there for you. Even now she has failed to acknowledge this, blaming you and your loss for her lack of contact. She hasn’t apologised or even explained why she failed you so dismally. Had she done any of the above, you would be in a much better position to move forward as friends.

My friend had a miscarriage, she guessed I was pregnant a few weeks later, we cried together, we hugged and we spoke only of her pain for the next six months it took until she was pregnant again, why? Because I could share my news and excitement with everyone and anyone else, I did not need or expect that from her.

She came first, because her pain and need at that moment was far far greater than mine. I refused to talk about my pregnancy at all with her, and we got her through the darkest moments together. It didn’t lessen my pregnancy or change how I felt about it, but it did make it bearable for her.
We are still friends today.

Sometimes we need to know when to put our friends first, when we need to step up and pick up the pieces - when they need us most. We have to be there - otherwise what the hell is the point in being friends at all ?