AIBU to think believing science can change sexual orientation is a logical and reasonable assumption?

[haggistramp]

From Ann Widdicome who believes that as science can change a person's sex then its logical that science could change a person's sexual orientation? To be clear I dont believe this, I dont think science (be it hormones or extreme plastic surgery) can change a person's sex, let alone a person's sexual orientation but for those who do believe humans can change sex, do you agee? If not, why not?

No...people who go through gender reassignment are still attracted to the same sex they were before hand usually.

Ah ... You clearly are the expert then!

I am a lesbian because I am an adult human female who is sexually attracted to other adult human females. Men cannot be lesbians because they are not/cannot become adult human females. Any other definition of what a lesbian is us homophobic.

One relates to the tangible body and the other relates to the intangible mind. Modern medicine can be used to alter the physical body in many wonderful ways. It cannot be used to alter that which we cannot see or touch. So, no, I don't think science can be used to alter orientation. There is no scientific way to make anyone fall in love with anyone else.

I wish the vile woman should have stayed away from politics.

I agree people can't change their biological sex. Nor can they change their sexual orientation.

Although I understand sometimes males who take female hormones go from being attracted to women to being attracted to men. Do you think they were always attracted to men and just suppressing it for some reason? Or is it the female hormones they're taking that changes something?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.them.us/story/sexual-attraction-after-transition/amp

"Several studies suggest that changes in sexual orientation among trans people are quite common. Among 115Dutch participants, for example, 33% of trans women and 22% of trans men reported experiencing changes in their sexual attractions. This was true of 49% of trans masculine and 64% of trans feminine individuals in a2015 study of 452 participants from Massachusetts, with the majority of these changes occurring after social transition. In another2013 studyof 507 U.S. trans men who’ve started transitioning (including hormones and/or surgery), 40% reported some shift in sexual attractions. Almost identical results were found in a2005 studyof 232 U.S. trans women who had undergone surgical and hormonal transition, where 43% reported significant shifts in their sexual orientation (of 2+ points along the 7-point Kinsey scale)."

I'm not an expert but as far as I understand it, trans people are born a different gender from the one assigned at birth, and some trans people undergo surgery so that their body might 'match' their gender better. It isn't the surgery ("sex change") or physical attributes that determine someone's gender.

I don't know how this can be compared with this idea that "science" could change a person's sexuality or why this would be welcomed. Unfortunately in some places in the world, conversion therapy is believed to be a real science and causes psychological trauma to its victims.

Ann Widdecombe has made many bigoted statements during her career and as far as I'm concerned ought to keep her mouth shut about LGBT issues because she clearly doesn't try to understand them - her recent comments are gibberish. I'm dismayed that she has ended up representing the South West as an MEP.

Very sad those "ex-gay" people marching in Washington

trans people are born a different gender from the one assigned at birth...It isn't the surgery ("sex change") or physical attributes that determine someone's gender.

@NemesiaPinkLagoon. May I ask what a Gender is? How does one have one?

I don't know how this can be compared with this idea that "science" could change a person's sexuality or why this would be welcomed.

When you tell someone vulnerable, who feels isolated because they don't feel they fit the 'majority' mold, that they can fix the 'problem' of their sexuality by 'identifing' as the opposite sex and just taking these little pills and it will all be better... I think calling that conversion therapy is not unreasonable.

I think Anne Widdecombes dislike of the gayers is pretty well documented. She is utterly batshit imo but I can see where she’s coming from, from her own pov you understand, not my own.

Apparently people can change sex nowadays, even if it’s just a case of saying they have. Hell people can have all the sex based rights afforded to women if they identify as a woman and wear a dress two days a week. So if society has decided that this is possible and should be allowed then why not conversion therapy? The answer would appear to be that it wouldn’t be popular and therefore it’s not allowed. If in 10 years there was a massive backlash against the L and G then it would be on the table I’m sure.

Now from my own perspective as a lesbian I don’t think people can change sexual orientation any more than they can change their sex, that is to say not at all, not possible. It’s a biological impossibility to change one’s sex and socialisation is near impossible to overcome as well, even when a person makes an effort. If people could be cured of their gayness then I would have most certainly been cured by now. Even from our very earliest consciousness heterosexuality is drummed into us as the norm and many of us are pushed into oppposite sex relationships as a result. It doesn’t work and if it did then there probably wouldn’t be many gays and lesbians in the world because we’d all be converted by the time we’re 6.

Anne Widdecombe can take heart though because we have a generation of young gays and lesbians under pressure to conform, and the brave and stunning way to conform nowadays is to be trans, and bingo, a confused young lesbian becomes a straight man and a effeminate gay boy becomes a straight woman. And no, I don’t believe a straight male who decides to change his sex by magically identifying as a woman is now a lesbian. It’s insulting to same sex attracted people to even suggest such a thing. It’s homophobic, one might say. But as I’ve said, the likes of Anne Widdecombe can take heart because conversion therapy is happening by the back door although ironically it seems to be creating more middle aged ‘lesbians,’ if anything, so maybe she won’t like that quite so much.

I can see it from the pov of a raging homophobe, even though I find it deeply unpleasant. I can see that they might be pissed off that people are being allowed to notionally change their sex, even though it’s a load of pie in the sky nonsense which impinges on the rights of others, but they’re not allowed to do anything about their obsession about the evil gays.

I do find it all rather unpalatable but that’s what you get if you open the door to batshit crazy notions like people changing sex, because when you do, and you’re willing to piss and shit all over the sex based rights of others to do so then nasty ideas like gay conversion therapy will be suggested, and those who would press for such things will know that all they need to do is network like hell behind the scenes, slowly sneak in little changes, in language etc and bide their time.

As for the PP getting upset that this is even being spoken about, well how do you expect us to understand what’s happening and stop it if we’re not allowed to talk about it? You might not like the link with trans but tough shit, this is what’s happening and we need to stop harmful ideologies in their tracks. Being nice is fine until you inevitably bump into the law of unintended consequences, and just because you refuse to think about all the unpleasant ways things can be exploited, doesn’t mean other people aren’t.

We need to get to a point where nobody wants anyone to have to change their sexual orientation.

Ann Widdecombe is a bigoted, hypocritical and far right piece of shit.

@whatisthisfuckery, i cant agree more with your post. Now that i have time this morning i was going to reply but I dont think i could put it into better words that you have. Its the trying to shut down discussion
for whatever reasons, be it naivety, shortsightedness, stupidity or downright homophobia that is shocking. And it makes me wonder why people don't want to anyone else to discuss gay conversion (either back door or out and out gay conversion which is what Ann is referring to) and shut all attempts down with false claims of transphobia.

In the future, if they work out why some people are straight and others gay, it would be logical to assume that science could come up with a way to alter someone’s sexual preference. But just because you can do something doesn’t necessarily mean you should.

But some people who are gay might actually want this sort of advancement, eg people who are married to a person of the opposite sex and have kids might prefer to alter their sexual orientation. I think it’s extremely arrogant to suggest that such an discovery would be to the detriment of all.

@lifeover, actually that is a very thoughtful point.

Its a bit like the prostitution debate then imo, there are some women who benefit from and enjoy prostitution, but for the vast majority its pretty harmful. So if gay conversion was available, there probably would be some gay people who would benefit from it, but then I think there would be far more who would feel under pressure to convert to be the 'normal straight' or in less tolerant societies, forced to convert.

@haggistramp, I think any such scientific advancement would need to be matched with increased education about its ok to be whoever you want. That includes being straight.

I think what the op is trying to say albeit in a clumsy manner is that it now seems to be ok to switch gender if you are not happy being that gender others might not happy being gay because they want a traditional nuclear family or they might have strong religious beliefs. If science could facilitate a life they feel is more suited to them then being able to change sexual orientation should not be seen as an entirely bad thing.

Re being forced to change there are many countries where being male is much more preferable to being female but there doesn’t seem like much enforced gender reassignment, indeed it usually seems more men are becoming women.

I would argue that in the countries where being Male is preferred they just disproportionately kill baby females before and after birth. The reason why there is not an increase in women identifying as men in these countries is because women there realise identifying as a man wouldn't stop any oppression they suffered as a women, because they and their oppressors understand they will always be women regardless of what they identify as, and oppressed because of it. Females are not oppressed because of their identity but because of their biology.

I think the issue with Anne Widdicome's comment is that it isn't "the next step", it's something that the medical community worked on (and in some places still working on) for many many years and was of great harm. Literally, the term homophobia originated in part to point out the scientific and medical fallacies used against LGB people by using the same medical language.

We've already been through that and similar ideological thinking that is possible could maybe be part of TRA movements, but her comments are very ignorant of the history that there have already been decades+ of science to change people sexual orientation that has harmed and killed people and is still doing that.

Women transitioning/identifying into being men doesn’t work though, not here and not anywhere, for the simple fact that women are still considered to be lesser. It’s all well and good taking male socialisation and physiology and identifying as a woman, there’s not really much to lose, as has been proven by companies and organisations all over the country grovelling on their knees to be inclusive, but there’s nothing to be gained for a woman the other way. Still smaller, still weaker, still unsafe in male space, still socialised to put others first and not make a fuss. They’d never truly pass as men because there’s no way of emulating male genitals. Do look up faloplasty scarring, but brace yourself. If ever there was an example of what surgeons can do but definitely shouldn’t then that a most definitely it. It’s just a fact, females remain female because in the eyes of the patriarchy we’re not worthy of being equal.

Incidentally, the GRA legislation itself acknowledges that people do not change sex, and there’s a section about inherited family titles etc. I know you’ll all fall down in shock at this, not, but inherited titles still pass to a male regardless of whether he has legally become female, where as females can’t inherit even if they do become legally male. It’ almost as if they know, and the Free Masons, will let a transwoman remain but won’t admit transmen. patriarchy is good and strong, it still protects its own and it knows that people can’t change sex.

Regarding gays and lesbians who might wish to be ‘cured’ because they’re married. well that’s not a very good solution really is it, because who’s to say they’d be attracted to the person to whom they’re married? So a married man might be tempted, even fall in love with another man, but even if he is turned straight he might not fancy his wife and run off with a woman he does fall in love with. It doesn’t seem like a very solid reason to even try.If we’re going to create an environment where people are truly free to be as they are without coercion or discrimination, what would even be the point? The very existence of such a practice would still point to prejudice, and you can 100
% guarantee that some people would be subjected to it against their will or because of coercion.

She voted against equalizing the age of consent in the 90s. Some people never change.

@agnurse If conversion 'therapy' works why is it banned in so many places?

www.lifesitenews.com/news/200-ex-lgbt-men-women-rally-to-show-freedom-theyve-found-in-following-jesus

This is information about the March. There are external links as well so please do not dismiss it based solely on the source.

There is NOTHING from the speakers about "conversion therapy".

Some of them were survivors of the Pulse nightclub shooting.

So how do people change their sexuality? Just stare at the opposite sex until they magically find them attractive?

Usually it requires a great deal of prayer and determining if there was an underlying issue that contributed to developing an attraction for the same sex. I have heard anecdotally that there is a much higher incidence of a history of sexual abuse among people who self-identify as gay or bisexual, though whether this triggered the sexuality or whether these children were simply more at risk for being abused anyway is not certain.

@Thewitcher My parents genuinely believe I’m gay because I saw naked guys in the showers at rugby, so maybe give it a go!