AIBU to think believing science can change sexual orientation is a logical and reasonable assumption?

[haggistramp]

From Ann Widdicome who believes that as science can change a person's sex then its logical that science could change a person's sexual orientation? To be clear I dont believe this, I dont think science (be it hormones or extreme plastic surgery) can change a person's sex, let alone a person's sexual orientation but for those who do believe humans can change sex, do you agee? If not, why not?

You've heard anecdotally? Then it must be true.

Even if there is a link between sexual abuse and sexual orientation, that doesn't mean it can be changed. Or should be changed.

I’m a bit confused as to why posting an article about religious conversionists preying on gay people who have been victims of a horrific atrocity would make for good evidence? Does the PP who posted that think it looks good? Personally I think it’s disgustingly exploitative and victim blamey. ‘That rabid homophobe wouldn’t have been shooting at you if you were straight.’ Yeah, right. That’s fucked up beyond belief.

I know, it's sick. It's like saying that the survivors of the Christchurch attack should stop being muslim. Although it wouldn't surprise me if @agnurse believed that as well.

Please show me the evidence that religious conversionists ever "preyed" on these people or that they were forced to become ex-gay. Please also show me the evidence that any of the people mentioned in the article underwent abusive "conversion therapy".

Are you really so threatened by someone leaving the gay lifestyle and reversing their sexual orientation? What is the real issue here?

I do not believe that targeting someone for death for an arbitrary reason is acceptable.

The point I was trying to make is that it was the tragedy that triggered these people to re-evaluate their lives. This does not mean that the tragedy itself was a good thing or that it is acceptable.

I haven't read full thread. But didn't she say maybe science in the future could cure gay people? As if there's something wrong with being gay

Because there is no science that sexual orientation can be 'reversed'. And what exactly is 'the gay lifestyle?

And btw @agnurse you still haven't explained the exact method for changing your sexuality. Because I've tried in the past.

Assuming you're straight, could you make yourself attracted to the same sex, and stop being attracted to the opposite sex by sheer willpower?

nierclanger

What a load of goady bollocks. Nobody believes people can change sex.

sadly people do just like people believe the earth is flat if you go on Twitter you will see evidence of just that transwomen are women is the chant

The organisers of the march have links to the Liberty Council, a known hate group. They also seem to be opposed to the banning of conversion therapy.

I do not know exactly how they became ex-gay. But the impression I got from their testimonies was that it was the result of prayer, humility, and determining what it was that had triggered the attraction in the first place.

@agnurse you sound unhinge.

"ex-gays" are in denial because of people like you and living in communities that don't accept them and make them feel like they can't be themselves and have faith so they'd rather go back into the closet and play pretend (hurting innocent women/men in the process) than learn to embrace themselves and face constant bigotry.

Prayers don't make you straight, aren't a lot of sexual abuse especially targetting young boys (with male (!) priest/religious figures) happening in churches and other place of worship nowadays?

If you took 100 mumsnetters, you would probably find that only 7 of them identify as either gay or bi and while the rest and vast majority will identify as straight, you will quickly realize that a lot more than 7 women in that group will have gone through sexual abuse/assault (or will), the number of woman who go through sexual abuse/assault way outdo the number of woman who identify as gay or bi. Why would you want to make a correlation between the woman who identify as gay and their abuse and totally dismiss the fact that most women who get assaulted are straight?

You will find that sexual abuse doesn't make you like the same-sex more, it might make you despite the opposite sex and not want to be intimate with them but it won't make you wake up wanting women.

I am gay, I have gone through sexual abuse, that have zero thing to do with my liking for women (though a lot to do with my dislike of most men), and even if people found the "cure" to homosexuality, I would absolutely never want to take it. I spend my days hearing how miserable the dating/sex life for straight women is. Musmnet, is probably the biggest sample of what's wrong with heteronormativity and how even in 2019 most women still let their husband get away with doing litterally zero around the house and the kids, and being abusive. I think if there was a cure to sexual orientation, you would be quite surprised to see plenty of women deciding to turn bi/gaynot look back, and much less LGB people willing to go straight.

(Seriously I cannot think of one reason, where I would be better of being straight AT ALL (and yeah no, being respected and liked by bigotted people like you isn't one.) )

This could have been quite an interesting thread. I do think it might be possible to change someone’s sexual orientation with hormones possibly, however I don’t think we should explore this as the results could be abused. Like they can probably choose embryos with certain characteristics such as blue eyes, etc but they don’t, as it’s unethical.

1. The Boy Scouts of America recently had a scandal. It was estimated that over 12,000 youth had been sexually abused by leaders. Sexual abuse is hardly confined to the clergy.

1. Your second argument is a common fallacy. It is certainly not true that every sexually abused person becomes gay. But reportedly, people who are gay may more commonly have a history of being sexually abused.

As another example, there is documented evidence that most abusers were once victims of abuse. But it does not follow that most victims of abuse go on to abuse. In fact the opposite is true.

1. You have zero evidence that the people in the article are unhappy or in denial. In fact, they state that they are very happy in their current lifestyle. Can you read their minds?

One more point: you are assuming that Mumsnet is representative of the general population. That may not be the case. It is quite possible that there are thousands of happy, healthy marriages between a man and a woman. We just don't read about them on MN because they don't post here.

Saying that people on MN describe marriage issues and that therefore there is a massive problem is akin to going to a therapist's office, interviewing the clients, and then reaching the conclusion that there is a massive mental health crisis in society and nearly every person is affected. Your sample is not representative and therefore your statistics are skewed. Similarly, walking into a nursing home, one could conclude that every older person has multiple health issues and requires substantial care. That's not true either. You just don't see the healthy ones represented in the population from which you derived your sample.

Almost everyone is just going to write Ann Widdecombe off, though.

The homophobia I’m worried about is from organisations that lobby for GNC children (so more likely to grow up LGB) to be drugged, sterilised & operated on to make them resemble the opposite sex. Or Stonewall & Pride, who used to support LGB, rejecting same-sex attraction as a concept & calling the police on lesbians who protest about that.

That’s a LOT more dangerous & insidious because people assume it’s ‘progressive’.

Although I understand sometimes males who take female hormones go from being attracted to women to being attracted to men. Do you think they were always attracted to men and just suppressing it for some reason? Or is it the female hormones they're taking that changes something?

Ultimately I think we don't know as much about sexuality as the standard view would have it. The putative view is that sexuality is demarcated by chromosome. If you are not bisexual then you will be exclusively attracted to only people of one type of chromosome but not the other. and this is all hard-wired. Maybe it is a little more complicated than that?

Maybe it is more like, you are attracted to a certain "look". If someone has it they will be attractive to you, if they don't they won't? People do after all become attracted to and develop feelings for people that the standard view says that they shouldn't (when they didn't know that the person was of the "wrong" chromosome and so shouldn't be attractive to them). And then maybe hormones can affect that "look"?

(Thinkinh here of "I used to be a man" Jerry Springer shows where GFs wwould reveal to BFs that they are trans women. Or stories of women claiming sexual assault when it turns out that their BF was actually female).

No-one knows for 100% sure and a few of the beliefs about it are assumpptions. so who knows what governs it and what can influence that. Hormones or anything else.

So to answer your question requires speculating a tad, assuming that what you have heard is accurate.

Maybe it is more like, you are attracted to a certain "look"

I’d say smell has far more to do with sexual attraction than physical appearance.

Fairly sure studies have shown that subconsciously smell is key in sexual attraction. It’s part of the reason we usually aren’t attracted to siblings or close relatives- pheromones tells us we are too genetically similar.

I do wonder with today’s obsession with washing, deodorants and perfumes whether that disrupts the attraction process...

Smell may be important but people seem to manage just fine in developing celeb crushes or other attractions when look is all they have. Well I am sure no-one here has ever smelt Idris Elba for example :)

JAPAB it wasn't speculation. I cited several studies where it was concluded it was very common.

www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwizppCSg9LiAhUJmhQKHdnED5YQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.them.us%2Fstory%2Fsexual-attraction-after-transition&psig=AOvVaw024vpVHVPyKk3sXNDkPlzV&ust=1559813206811622

"Several studies suggest that changes in sexual orientation among trans people are quite common. Among 115Dutch participants, for example, 33% of trans women and 22% of trans men reported experiencing changes in their sexual attractions. This was true of 49% of trans masculine and 64% of trans feminine individuals in a2015 study of 452 participants from Massachusetts, with the majority of these changes occurring after social transition."

Don't even dignify Widdecombe's homophobic and repulsive rant with even a millisecond of your time.

She is a shit human.

Zingally

And my comment upthread about the homophobia from 'LGBTQ' groups being a hell of a lot more dangerous because it's not recognised as such?

I do not know exactly how they became ex-gay. But the impression I got from their testimonies was that it was the result of prayer, humility, and determining what it was that had triggered the attraction in the first place.

So people just magically become attracted to the opposite sex through prayer. And all the people who have tried to change their sexuality through prayer and it didn't work just weren't praying hard enough I suppose. It also brings up the question of why God made them gay if the first place, just to make them straight again after they prayed to him. Seems like kind of a roundabout way of doing things.

And, @agnurse, you still haven't explained what "the gay lifestyle" is.

That would mean being actively involved in gay sexual relationships.

Haven't read the full thread.

But here's my thruppence.

I was abused as a child by men (I am a female). I am very happily married to a man. Totally heterosexual.

My daughter has suffered no sexual trauma. No abuse. She is gay. Happily so. And God help any bastard that tries to make her ashamed of being gay or any other aspect of her wonderful self, let alone try to manipulate or guilt her into trying to change it.