If you're female AIBU to ask if you're ok with male health professionals at all times and in any scenario?

[DockerDre]

It's just that question really.

Bertrand - you're contradicting yourself, you're losing me now lol.
"No I do not think that women should only have female hcps."

"I do think that some things should be just between women."

Um....

OK.

Even you said you eventually corrected yourself!
When people said "hang on a minute, why should it be women only" only then did you seemingly change your view to we should have the choice

I'm a very private person and the idea of having intimate areas examined by any stranger makes me feel incredibly anxious. I have been fortunate enough not to have had any health problems which would make this necessary. I also haven't had children, which I know other women have said helped them worry less about that sort of thing.

So yes, I'd want a female for any sort of intimate procedure - and even that would be a bit of an ordeal for me.

I have no problem with seeing my male GP for any other issues, and have a male dentist. It's not about thinking men are less competent. It's about privacy and comfort.

I said in my first post that people should have thee choice.

What possible motive could I have for saying that they shouldn’t?

Yes

In theory yes, but I've had gynae issues and male Doctors have usually treated me but had a female chaperone there at all times. There's no way I would have been comfortable with some of the procedures alone in a room with a male, or a male chaperone also.

Out of interest though, what do you think my motive would be if I did want to make women only ever consult women HCP?

I really don't know. Just as I cannot work out why you want men excluded from menstruation and childbirth.

I can not see one sensible justification for you position.

It has never bothered me. And I've had some heart tests that required me to strip to the waist and then lift a boob so that the Male technician could apply the sticky sensor things under there. Never had the option of a Male for anything gynae but again wouldn't bother me.

I would HATE to live in a world with no understanding of the different life experiences of men and women. I would hate for there to be no recognition that that goes beyond the physical and into social and well, everything.

Some of my extended family are very religious and absolutely believe this - men and women are innately different. That's why they pray separately, why women don't count for certain things (like making up the minimal number of worshippers), why there is a huge pressure on boys to do certain boy things (like studying) and girls are expected to get married and have babies.

I think that's bollocks personally. God knows enough people out there agree with you, however. They are the ones who don't want female soldiers because girls need special supportive girl space and can't cope on deployment or think women shouldn't be surgeons as that is too aggressive and should get into paediatrics instead. And as a result the world we live in is currently based around your beliefs and not mine. Not sure that is really going to change any time soon so I'm probably tilting at windmills.

What possible motive could I have for saying that they shouldn’t?

What I took from your posts was that you thought the default should be sex segregation in medicine with women only really being allowed to practice certain kinds of medicine. Which is a viewpoint I've met in a few places - it reinforces the conservative viewpoint that men and women are intrinsically different and should stick to their gender roles.

Not saying that is what you meant to say but that was very much what came across.

“I can not see one sensible justification for you position.”

But it it the position you have decided that I hold- even though I have repeatedly said that I don’t. Why not apply Occam’s Razor and accept you might be wrong!

@batvixen123, I think you might be talking at cross-purposes.

You're talking about hating gender stereotypes and patriarchal roles. Most women do; they're not based on sex differences, they're based on a vague and incorrect ideas that "women shouldn't do x, and men shouldn't do y".

I don't think that's the same thing at all as "there should be both sex-based rights and single sex spaces for those who need them, with a recognition that men and women aren't identical creatures".

I’m fine with male HCP, a male doctor performed my membrane sweep when pregnant albeit with a female chaperone. But I fully respect people’s right to request a female

“What I took from your posts was that you thought the default should be sex segregation in medicine with women only really being allowed to practice certain kinds of medicine”

If anything, before my correction, my posts suggested that there were certain kinds of medicine that men should be excluded from!

I said in my first post that people should have thee choice.

What possible motive could I have for saying that they shouldn’t? hmm

Because you initially said that certain things should be kept solely between women.

How can you then say that we should have choice? How can I choose to have a male HCP if you have decreed that certain things are kept solely between women?

Your 2 points are contradicting each other.

Just as you said you don't agree with the campaign to include dads in talking about periods but then said you understand that some dads are single parents, but that it's better for it to be kept between women. So completely missing how any number of circumstances could lead to a girl or woman having to deal with a period, or issues relating to periods, around men.

In your world, only single dad's would deal with periods if no other choice available, all other men excluded.

So what if a girl starts her period while mum is away somewhere? Or at school when she has a male teacher? Or she suddenly floods at work in front of male colleagues or a million other scenarios where a period happens in the presence of a man?

If we have misunderstood you maybe you could explain your comments and how the above scenarios could be dealt with in light of your desire to exclude men from periods?

No I'm not. I did have a gyne exam once from a male GP because it needed looking at and it would be ages for another appointment and I was in pain. But that was the exception. In general I'm not comfortable with a man looking at my genitals who is not my partner. I would talk to a male doctor about female issues though.

But it it the position you have decided that I hold- even though I have repeatedly said that I don’t. Why not apply Occam’s Razor and accept you might be wrong!

How can I be wrong? You corrected 1 part of 1 sentence.

You made at least 2 posts asserting your view that some issues should be between women and that men should be excluded.

At least have the courage to own your view.

You know what, DecomposingComposers? You just carry on reading my mind and not my posts. You’re obviously having a lovely time doing it-who am I to get I your way!

You know what, DecomposingComposers? You just carry on reading my mind and not my posts. You’re obviously having a lovely time doing it-who am I to get I your way!

Quite the opposite in fact. I am reading your posts, as can everyone else.

It is you who is saying that you meant something different to what you actually posted and so are expecting us to read your mind rather than your words.

I just took Bertrand's post to be intended as an "ideally I feel we'd all be part of a nice supportive sisterhood who looked after each other as women, not that it's always possible" sort of comment?

I really don't understand the back and forth on this one, or why people are commenting with a "gotcha" tone. Usually I can spot it but not here.

I'd be willing to allow a male HCP to carry out whatever is necessary but agree, I'd like a female HCP present whilst doing so.

I think there are ploppers on this thread deliberately misunderstanding the issues to twist things.

That's what it looks like to a disinterested observer.

Yep, no problem in any regard. I chose a male ob gyn to deliver my children which included examinations and vaginal deliveries. I’ve had a different male gynae treat abnormal cervical cells. I’ve had male GP’s do pap smears and breast exams. Male nurses etc. No problems at all, they are healthcare professionals.

I had a colposcopy recently and I asked to see the female Doctor.

Last year I had a breast check with a male doctor and wasn't bothered at all.

I had to have a heart monitor attached whilst on a treadmill and remember chatting to a hospital guy beforehand and then following him into the examination room. He had a casual polo shirt on and an NHS lanyard but I honestly thought he was an orderly or just doing the form filling but I remember feeling really awkward when it became apparent that he was staying in the room with me (just me and him) asking me to take my blue cover up off and would be attaching the many electrodes. Cue all the lifting up of the breast to get underneath. I really hadn’t thought he was the medical person. Afterwards I tried to analyse my discomfort - was it because I hadn’t been asked if it was OK? Was it because he didn’t look like a doctor or nurse? Or was it because he was a man? I’ve had plenty of gynae procedures done by men before and not batted an eyelid. Been for breast investigations too. But this felt quite an intimate situation and if there had been any choice I would have liked a woman to do it. Likewise at my last smear I was really nervous because the previous one had been awful (3 attempts, 2 separate visits etc.) and was really relieved when my own female doctor offered to do it. Maybe it’s an age thing too.

I read Ina May Gaskin’s book when pregnant with my first and I was very much taken with the idea of her female community of midwives supporting women with pregnancy and birth. I took it on board and used a visualisation of all the women giving birth at the same time as me across the world as though we were all connected like candles lighting up the darkness. Birth and breastfeeding are such intensely female experiences. I did want women with me through that. I can understand the sentiment of Bertrand’s view expressing the importance of that female solidarity and support. Which isn’t to say that men must be excluded from it - more that we shouldn’t feel compelled to include men in it unless we want to. They don’t have an automatic right to be a part of it. So, yeah, men can be midwives and obstetricians and gynaecologists but they should respect when a woman wants another woman treating her. Sometimes it won’t be possible such as in an emergency situation. But a woman should never feel pressured to accept a male hcp for fear of being branded a bigot or a prude or anything else.

So I am all for decreasing the stigma and the shame surrounding women’s health by ensuring that men are educated in it, but at the same time I think it’s important to preserve women’s privacy and dignity where they require it.

I’m really not sure what the sustained picking at Bertrand’s posts is for either. It doesn’t seem particularly productive.