If you're female AIBU to ask if you're ok with male health professionals at all times and in any scenario?

[DockerDre]

It's just that question really.

Thanks for doing that @scifibi I had a similar situation in my very early twenties and unfortunately for me the accepted norms left the door open for even less appropriate behaviour. I never said anything to anyone and pushed the experience deep down and “got on with my life” as I had been trained to do since birth.

“That's fine if you think that, you do you.
The great thing about it is we have a choice though, so who are you to say no men for the rest of us?”

I’m not. You must have missed my caveats.

You literally said you'd been thinking and some things should be kept between women.

But I don’t see any reason why men have to be involved in everything. I was very ambivalent about that recent (very blokey) campaign about dads and periods too. Yes, I know there are single dads but for most girls surely it’s a woman they would want to talk to about periods?

How exactly does it affect you though? How does a campaign aiming to educate men about periods and encouraging dad's to be more comfortable when dealing with them adversely affect you?

Can you not see the benefits of men being less embarrassed or ignorant about them?

And maybe girls would prefer to talk to another woman about periods but what if only dad is available? What if mum is not there at that particular moment? Do you expect the dad to suddenly and immediately know what to do, how to deal with it and become instantly comfortable? Equally you expect the girl to suddenly become comfortable with talking to her dad about it when until that very second dad has been kept away from discussing "women's things"?

I've seen many posts on MN with women upset that their male boss hasn't understood when they've had an issue with periods or that they've been mortified when they've leaked in front of male colleagues - why isn't it better that men are encouraged to see this as a normal part of life that they are comfortable talking about and dealing with?

Saying that it needs to be kept between women seems an entirely retrograde step to me. No one is forcing you to discuss your periods with men but I want men that I encounter to understand and to not make an issue out of any problems that I might have or to shy away from it if something happens in front of them. So if you don't want to talk about it with men then don't but don't try to make everyone else's lives harder by taking us back to Victorian times where women's problems are discussed in a whisper away from the earshot of men.

Sorry- I meant to edit “should be kept between women” to “best kept between women as much as possible”

The final line of Bertrand’s post includes a caveat about women who prefer male hcps. She isn’t suggesting the removal of choice.

But she clearly says that certain things, like menstruation and childbirth, should be kept between women.

So, having kept men away from these things, how is she advocating for me to choose a male HCP if I so wish? By keeping men away from these areas there won't be any male HCPs for me to choose will there?

And Betrand I haven't misunderstood your posts. You literally said that men should be kept away from some female issues and that they should be kept only between women.

It doesn’t bother me at all but I strongly believe that women should be able to request a BIOLOGICALLY female if she’s more comfortable with that and that she should be respected in that preference.

Biologically female HCP.

Sorry- I meant to edit “should be kept between women” to “best kept between women as much as possible”

Hhmm. You made the same mistake in 2 separate posts? 2 posts now you've asserted that there are certain issues that men should be kept out of but that isn't really how you feel??

Sorry, Decomposing- you seem very angry about this and don’t seem to want to believe me. I think there’s an interesting conversation to be had. Happy to have it if you are too, but not in the mood for fisticuffs,

Decomposing, I wonder why I should have to challenge Bertrand’s views here? I take issue with you suggesting that it’s ‘equally bad’. You might have good points about removing stigma around menstruation but for me this is a big detail off the original issue.

I often see women standing up against the ill treatment of women and getting shouted down because they should also be protesting about the ‘equally bad’ treatment of men. It’s impossible to campaign on every issue at once. We can’t protest every act of injustice at the same time. It’s predictable that it is always feminists that are attacked for not putting men’s issues on the same footing. Apparently for some people, we must solve all male problems before we can begin on the women’s issues.

I posted in detail earlier this morning outlining why we are not starting off on a level playing field here. I’m fine with men being educated about periods. I’m fine with men becoming doctors specialising in female health. But I am not and never will be ok with women being shamed, coerced, ridiculed or forced into accepting a male hcp if they don’t want one. That’s where I stand on this issue. That’s what I think is important here.

And absolutely crucially, I feel it’s imperative to challenge the anti-privacy agenda that is creeping in on the coattails of liberal, progressive viewpoints and exploiting them for the gain of predators.

How does decomposing sound angry?
It was just pointed out to you you did say on posts some things should be kept just between women.

I’ve been thinking about it since- and I find I honestly do feel that some things should be kept between women. Childbirth and menstruation for example

I think that's a really good example of the attitude I don't understand at all. Which isn't to say you shouldn't have to right to request female HCP as you absolutely should, but I don't get it. I guess as long as you don't want to campaign for no male midwives to be allowed and I don't want to campaign for no right to pick your midwife, there's no reason both our views can't just co exist.

I'd also add that as the child of a single widowed dad I'm very glad that some education on periods and the like were available to men back in the day or we both would have crashed and burned when puberty hit!

It doesn't bother me seeing a man but I do get embarrassed like for example at the Doctors once I was having some pain and the male GP wanted to know about discharge etc and it just made me feel so embarrassed why I don't know! But I felt really stupid and dirty.

Didn't have the problem though in labour I found male midwives to be more gentler,
My poor mum on the other hand had a midwife with hands like Pat Jennings doing her internals bless her.

Decomposing, I wonder why I should have to challenge Bertrand’s views here? I take issue with you suggesting that it’s ‘equally bad’. You might have good points about removing stigma around menstruation but for me this is a big detail off the original issue.

Because if you are pulling up people who seek to remove choice then surely you should pull up everyone who seeks to remove choice? And I didn't raise the issue of men and periods - I responded to the comment made by Bertrand so why not tell them off for raising a subject that is, according to you, off topic?

And Bertrand how do I sound angry? You wrote 2 posts asserting a certain view point. When challenged you told lime that they had not read your posts correctly. You then said that you hadn't meant to post what you posted - well, we can only rect to what you did post, not what you "meant" to post, surely?

And absolutely crucially, I feel it’s imperative to challenge the anti-privacy agenda that is creeping in on the coattails of liberal, progressive viewpoints and exploiting them for the gain of predators

i think thats really interesting and well-expressed- ive noticed this in other threads too: the idea that 'people will get over 'taboos' about menstruation if men can access women's spaces' - on first glance, that may seem appealing but when we dig down its really saying women have to get over the idea that their privacy or autonomy or choice is important.

I think the general tone on this thread (and it’s only my impression) is that women should be happy with male HCP, and that the only reason for not being is worry about abuse and/or fear of abuse. The simple feeling of being more comfortable with another woman is not enough, and even indicates some sort of fragility. I find this very troubling.

“I'd also add that as the child of a single widowed dad I'm very glad that some education on periods and the like were available to men back in the day or we both would have crashed and burned when puberty hit!”

Of course men and boys should be educated. I think what I mean is that the actual practicalities of dealing with periods would be better dealt with between women if possible.

I don't think that is the general tone if the thread though. I think that most of the posters who have said that they are happy with both male and female HCPs are simply answering the question in the OP, not saying that all women have to accept it.

Read the OP. The question is asking if I, as an individual, have a preference. It isn't asking if all patients...

I think what I mean is that the actual practicalities of dealing with periods would be better dealt with between women if possible.

What does this mean though?

I think that most of the posters who have said that they are happy with both male and female HCPs are simply answering the question in the OP, not saying that all women have to accept it

Plus a damn good proportion have actually said “I don’t mind but those who do should have a choice”.

Plus a damn good proportion have actually said “I don’t mind but those who do should have a choice”.

Yes, exactly.

BertrandRussell - I don't agree at all that sex segregation is a positive ideal to aspire to at all and in that area I guess we do have a fundamental gap in our agreement. I would like the world to be basically gender neutral, with no "girl jobs" and "boy jobs" or "special women's secrets" or "boys locker room chat" but with space for anyone with a personal preference to access key spaces, so you could request a female HCP, I could expect kosher food available to me in hospital (which I have heard some MNetters say is stupid), and someone else might feel uncomfortable with a HCP showing visible signs of faith.

The default being "we don't let anyone except a grade A fully certified, chromosome checked, baby carrying woman to work in these areas" would make me very sad and is not the world I want to live in. It would feel like a great slide backwards.

No, Decomposing, I don’t have a duty to pull up everyone advocating for removal of choice. That’s how feminists are frequently derailed from advocating for the causes important to them because women are so often expected to solve the problems of everyone.

What prompted me to post on this thread was Trebla’s very disturbing post which I’ll quote for the fourth or fifth time - ‘socially constructed ideas about privacy’.

Whatever Trebla’s motivation for that post was, it is a pervert’s charter. It is the agenda of paedophiles and fetishists eager to jump on hard-won LGBT rights and to attempt to push their perversions as legitimate sexualities and to depict any resistance to this as coming from bigoted and/or frigid women.

I don’t care if the thread goes off topic but I personally am not going to participate in a derail around periods because I want to be absolutely clear that the anti-privacy agenda is dangerous and it shouldn’t be fuelled by people commenting that because they are fine with male hcps, any woman should be. Most people have not suggested this, but there are a few and I think it’s important to challenge posts that say things like ‘why would I care what’s in a doctor’s pants’. I’ve made my point about that. I’m not going to be called to account for everything that anyone else posts. Just because I’ve argued against removing the choice of female hcps for women doesn’t mean I am going to be dragged into any argument about any choice and my refusal to do so does not invalidate the points I had made.