to ask if you would really make these journeys without flying for the sake of the environment

[IDSNeighbour]

I'm terrified of flying. I will fly but only if there is absolutely no other feasible way of getting somewhere.

I've just booked my transport for my summer holiday - 36 hours each way on long distance coaches for £230 instead of 2 hours each way on a plane for £160.

A couple of years ago I took 3 trains over about 48 hours to get to Russia for about £300 (I think - can't remember). I think flights took 4 hours though I think they were a similar price that time, not sure.

Other than fear (which isn't that common?), I can't think why anyone would choose a transport method that is both longer AND more expensive, except for environmental reasons. But these buses and trains are pretty popular and book up. I know some will only do one leg but the buses in particular are often straight through and the huge distance tickets are easy to source.

So I'm wondering if anyone would do this purely to lower their carbon footprint? Is it a reasonable expectation on people for the environment?

I try not to fly where possible for environmental reasons. But won't do a coach journey of over 2 hours. Trains are so so much more comfortable.

I think it's valid over short haul.
A high number of 30 min air trips vs 2h train trips don't seem to be that worthy.
It seems to me that trains should be made faster in general (living in a country with crap rail services).

The same for city hoppers on holiday. Much better to fly to one place and stay there for the duration of the holiday (referring to a fairly recent thread).
Skype for work when possible.
Ensuring luggage is as light as possible.

We flew to Pisa once and then traveled round Italy on the trains. One epic journey down to the south coast, so it would be more than possible to do Sicily that way! Was pre kids so easy to read on the trains. Wouldn't fancy 8 hours on a train with the children to entertain!

simulation mind you don't break your arm there.

Coaches are my idea of hell. Long car journeys make me (and the dcs) sick, so those are out. Trains are an option though, but holiday time is limited and wasting 4 days on travel seems excessive when dh cant get more than 14 days off in a row.

If we couldn't fly, we wouldn't leave Europe and probably would be limited to locations with 3 hours drive of a ferry port. But then, many of the older generations only left the continent they lived on for wars.

Just doing some approximate sums, I reckon your 72hr return journey will produce something like 350kg of CO2 per passenger. I do a lot of track days and a single track day will produce more than that!

We are a super travel-sick family so we do everything by the shortest way possible. If there were no planes we wouldn't go abroad again.

@IAmAlwaysLikeThis What a lovely thing to say to a disabled person.

It is interesting reading people on this thread who regularly use planes for essentials like visiting family and going to work. This has really only been possible for a few decades. I was born in the late 70s, and in childhood (okay, working class) we never flew. I took my first flight at 21. I loved watching the Beeb travel programs - blue skies, white sandy beaches - total fantasy for me. My wealthy DH had a handful of flights to Portugal in his childhood. Fast-forward to today and people more-or-less view air travel as a right. Amazing how quickly we've become accustomed to our collective wealth as a nation.

I think flying should be regulated with people only allowed a certain number of flights over a period of time. People should not be allowed to wreck the environment for their own pleasure. Too many people regularly fly long haul.

I'd go further than that. I'd like to see a per capita carbon allowance. You could choose whether to sacrifice your diesel 4x4 for a greener car, and take an extra flight or two, or have a few short-haul flights instead of one long-haul. We'd make different choices if that was the case, like going by motorbike to visit family instead of taking the car.

And people who don't want to travel could sell their allowance to people who do.

I wouldn't.

It's a luxury to be able to travel at all, but we don't all have the option of spending an extra couple of hundered quid and two days to get somewhere that could be reached in half a day.

I don't think giving up travel all together really helps, while it might be good for the environment, there are places that rely entirely on tourism to survive and people genuinely need us to keep visiting them so they can feed their children and send them to school.

Every time I've used the channel tunnel by car there have been ridiculous delays, I know that I've probably just been unlucky and delays happen all the time in air travel too, but that combined with the extra time, expense and hassle makes it a very unappealing option for me.

Viewing plane travel as a necessity goes hand in hand with having every day cheap products shipped from across the globe. Amazon deliveries from the opposite side of the Atlantic or the Continent, etc.

Ok so if I wanted to go to Paris by Eurostar, I'd have to drive for four hours just to get to London, how long is a flight to Paris, an hour or two? I'm already there in the time it's taken me just to reach London otherwise.
As admirable as I think it is to choose not to fly for environmental reasons, I don't think for most people it's a realistic alternative to use the train or coach. I get a week off work to holiday but it's going to take me a minimum of two days travel? And it's going to cost me more? I think I'll fly.
That said I've only done two return flights in my life. Both short European flights. We don't intend to take flight's even once a year but I don't see the problem with those that choose to do that. Now, those that holiday abroad multiple times a year, or go for a weekend hen/stag do when realistically the UK is more than sufficient for that is a completely different matter 🙄

I'd like to see a per capita carbon allowance

We don't have any DC, so would that mean that we're 'allowed' to take more flights under this system? Apparently it's one of the best ways to reduce your carbon footprint

It is interesting reading people on this thread who regularly use planes for essentials like visiting family and going to work.

Back in the 90s, I worked with someone who went from Brighton to Yorkshire every couple of months to visit family. Back then, when cheaper pre-bookable rail jourmeys weren't really a thing, it worked out cheaper for him to fly from Gatwick to Leeds/Bradford than to get the train, and it was loads quicker.

Seems crazy, but rail travel is absurdly expensive in the UK, especially if you need to make an unplanned trip and have to pay full price.

@BlooDeBloop.

You could say the same about a multitude if things. Most people think nothing of jumping in their car to pop to the corner shop to buy a bar of chocolate they don't need.
People buy the latest TV or smart phone because it is the latest rather than anything being wrong with the old one. Clothes are more or less disposable...fashion over function.
I know people that buy a new sofa every time they redecorate their living room.
Tumble driers and dishwashers are staples in most kitchens.

When people try to make out that 'it isn't us that need to change to avoid destroying the planet, it's big business' it's total bullsh*t.
Stop eating meat, walk or cycle, learn to fix your clothes, stop thinking convenience is your right.

i'll get off my soapbox now

I decided not to fly when I had young kids, partly for the environment, partly because why take small kids through airports when you don't have to, and partly because I saw lots of Europe and beyond growing up but had never been to Cornwall, Devon, the Welsh coast, East Anglia...

Last year went to France, trains to get to the south, but flew back. Given the kids and special needs, it was too many legs, but I'd certainly go with them by train to Europe again. I'm flying to America to see family for the first time in 10 years, but knowing I will probably never do so again.

I'd like to see air travel paying its costs - there's no reason for air fuel to be exempt from tax when petrol is highly taxed, and I don't want more runways in the SE.

I understand coaches are way more comfortable than 20 years ago - having toilets, for starters - but suspect most journeys on them are ones that wouldn't happen if they didn't exist. Friends get visits from their families and friends from Russia, Ukraine and rest of Eastern Europe, and my mate goes from London to Scotland return for about £20 every month.

BlooDeBloop - yes the world has change so much. I was born in the 60s. Very few people I knew flew.

Package holidays to Spain became popular in the 70s I think? That seemed such a luxury to me back then. I’m from Dublin originally and I think my first flight was aged 19 to Ibiza.

I moved to London and then ended up living in four different countries as an expat. Lots of flying if we wanted to see family.

I’m not sure we can ever really put the genie back in the bottle as regards to air travel.

I’m still holding out hope for Beam Me Up travel as in Star
Trek! My best friend lives in Australia and I have so many other friends and family around the world it would be fantastic to just Beam in and out!

Every time I've used the channel tunnel by car there have been ridiculous delays, I know that I've probably just been unlucky and delays happen all the time in air travel too, but that combined with the extra time, expense and hassle makes it a very unappealing option for me.

I think you've been unlucky. I've only made 10 trips, and they've all gone very smoothly.

I don't think I'll ever get over the weirdness of driving a car onto a train though. It seems so wrong!

@lakielady I agree with the per capita carbon allowance.

Alright, admission time… I’ve never been on a plane. And have never travelled outside of Europe.

To begin with, I was like you, OP. I was afraid of flying (and have a serious phobia of heights that gives me a horrendous physical reaction – panic attacks, dizziness, loss of vision and eventually passing out.)
This was my main reason for never travelling very far in my childhood, teens and early twenties but then, as I became more environmentally aware, I realised that not flying was a good thing for the environment. I stopped being embarrassed about it and stopped trying to change the way I felt about it or get on a flight.

I’m now happily a non-flier entirely for environmental reasons. I’ve only travelled outside the UK once in the past 5 years (to France). I don’t drive and choose to either cycle/walk or use public transport. I don’t eat meat, and try where possible to eat seasonally and locally grown food (though this can be very difficult at times!) I also don’t have my own children, I recycle, I use everything until it’s literally falling apart and can’t be mended/repaired. I went back to uni to study ecology, environmental science and geology, hoping that maybe one day I can do something - anything.

It makes me extremely angry to hear of regular business trips round the world, just for ‘networking’ purposes or for one bloody meeting. With skype and the level of communication we have now thanks to technology there’s absolutely no need for it.
And travelling long-haul regularly, just to sit on a beach or visit a resort? No, it’s selfish, pointless and people need to change their outlook sharpish if we want to make any kind of dent on climate change.

Our current way of life and attitudes globally to travel, food production, industry, consumerism and waste are completely unsustainable. We can all keep on as we are and say ‘Oh there’s no point because X,Y,Z country is doing A,B and C!’ but, personally, I need to feel like I’m at least making some effort to change my ways and do what I can for future generations, or I couldn't live with myself.
I really don't think the majority of people fully grasp just how fucked we are and how close to the edge our environment is

So yes, I would make those journeys without flying – but only if I really had to. Otherwise I just wouldn’t be making those journeys at all.

My DH and I have been non-flyers for the past 10 years - entirely for environmental reasons.

We have never flown with our children - we do long train travel - which the DC absolutely love - it’s so much more comfortable and fun than air travel.

We did Paris to Venice overnight last year for our summer hols, and it was wonderful.

Year before that we took the train from Paris to south France - in 4 hours. It’s astonishing how much quicker the trains are in France than in UK!

It’s all well and good saying that we can’t make a difference on an individual level - but it’s about changing attitudes to flying more than anything else.

The more of us that take on a responsible attitude to travel the more impact it will have on a larger scale.

That and the fact that we simply won’t be able to take cheap flights in the future - fuel will become way too scarce.

I took a train from Germany to France the other day. The speed was shown on a screen - well over three hundred km / h most of the way

@Brazenhussy0 I take my hat off to you!

If everyone was to make just one of the sacrifices you have, it would surely make a difference?

I'd love to do more, but we have cut back on meat and try our hardest to eat seasonally and keep our food miles as low as possible. We also don't buy stuff we don't need and only buy new things when something has got so old it needs replacing. We don't fly and do less than 5,000 miles pa in our car, of which half are for work (essential user).

I suppose the dishwasher could go ...

interesting fact re fast fashion in particular that it uses far more of the worlds resources than every plane and ship put together

it creates 20% of the worlds waste water and 10% of all carbon emissions
textile dyeing is the second biggest polluter of water world wide

reference official united nations environment

www.unenvironment.org/news-and-stories/story/putting-brakes-fast-fashion