to ask if you would really make these journeys without flying for the sake of the environment

[IDSNeighbour]

I'm terrified of flying. I will fly but only if there is absolutely no other feasible way of getting somewhere.

I've just booked my transport for my summer holiday - 36 hours each way on long distance coaches for £230 instead of 2 hours each way on a plane for £160.

A couple of years ago I took 3 trains over about 48 hours to get to Russia for about £300 (I think - can't remember). I think flights took 4 hours though I think they were a similar price that time, not sure.

Other than fear (which isn't that common?), I can't think why anyone would choose a transport method that is both longer AND more expensive, except for environmental reasons. But these buses and trains are pretty popular and book up. I know some will only do one leg but the buses in particular are often straight through and the huge distance tickets are easy to source.

So I'm wondering if anyone would do this purely to lower their carbon footprint? Is it a reasonable expectation on people for the environment?

Well I admire you for finding alternatives, the people I know who don't like flying don't go anywhere which is quite sad I think.

Coaches are my idea of hell, I used to get anxiety when I was younger and something like a coach trip was a huge trigger, I'm fine now but I do still try to avoid long coach rides! As planes have toilets I only panic when the seatbelt light is on lol! In terms of the environment, no, ignorantly I will use a plane when I need/want to without second guessing tbh.

We go on one family holiday abroad a year, short-haul in Europe, so no I'm not prepared to not fly for that one holiday when you compare our aviation use to those who have 3 or 4 long haul holidays or fly once or twice a month for business.

My DS lives in Japan so no I’m not going to stop visiting him and I don’t even want to imagine how long (and expensive) the journey would be without flying. I don’t have a car, in fact I can’t even drive! So I’m not going to feel guilty about taking a couple of flights a year. I wonder how many people saying we shouldn’t fly drive their cars every day?

I made a personal commitment to not flying more than once a year in 2006, I've stuck to it, and having DC in 2013 helped as only one flight since then

In that period I've gone flight free to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Montpellier, Tuscany, Morocco

In theory I'd love to say screw it and fly to the Seychelles twice a year with city breaks in between, but I feel that is just inherently wrong

Agree with the others above saying we need to keep the world habitable rather than selfishly push to see every last corner ourselves.

I'd love to visit the Antarctic, but morally I just don't feel it is right.

Given how other people live across the world I can make peace with my worst sacrifice being not getting to stroll along a beach in Bali or see the Ashes in Oz.

I think at heart some people are willing to make sacrifices for the environment, and the ones that aren't are split into those who admit it or not but choose to put themselves first, and those who don't really believe climate change is going to cause them any real harm.

I'm not sure which group is harder to reach and change

FWIW I strongly agree that getting governments and big business to make changes is crucially important, but these things take time and are to some extent consumer driven, and there are tipping points involved

I feel I can do my part, lead by example, and gently discuss my reasons when someone is interested. If enough people do this then I'm optimistic we can nudge gov/business towards making meaningful changes

All the recent votes for the greens imply that people might be changing their minds. How much of that was due to one Swedish teenage forcing people to listen? I think she precipitated a tipping point, but clearly we need more

36 hours on a coach sounds hellish to me. I think 12 would be my limit.
Same for trains really but you can get a lot further on a train in 12 hours.
I can’t imagine the end destination that would be worth a 36 hour coach journey compared to closer options, or overnight ferries.

My db, who as far as I know is not afraid of flying, does this kind of thing all the time. Would definitely go to Russia on the train. Have heard him speculate about the possibilities of going to China (for research) on the train.
Me, I do sometimes have to fly to visit elderly parents in Sweden, but I wouldn't do it just for a holiday somewhere: I'd rather just stay in Europe and not see the exotic places than know I am part of killing them. Don't think you can blame businessmen: they haven't got a choice. Holidayers absolutely do.

Very much miss the days when there were cheap overnight trains all through Europe: you could go to bed in Copenhagen and wake up in Hamburg, get to Athens in 3 days without breaking the bank.

I'd do the train! For the experience and getting to see all the places on the way as well as for the environment. I sure as hell wouldn't do it with toddlers though.. I'd just rather holiday closer to home ;)

"Someone always brings up bloody China on these environmental threads. China’s CO2 emissions per person is waaaay lower than the UK’s. Around 11 tons vs 4 tons per person per year."

Well that's just not true, you need to look at newer figures.

In the next ten years, China's emissions are only going to get worse too as more people can buy cars, consumer goods etc.

I think a one return flight a year rule seems like a good one.

It's really not the same looking at pictures of things, it's not the same as experiencing a different place. I think we would lose a lot as a society if we stopped travelling to other places.

Yes you are right IAmAlwaysLikeThis, the 2015 figures here [https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/science/each-countrys-share-of-co2.html] show China on 6.59 and the UK on 5.99, they’re not
That much worse than we are are they? And I still say the only fair way of calculating emissions is for us to take on the emissions from the products we consume, rather than letting the country they are made in take them on.

Sorry link fail

@Asta19, the luxury of cheap flights will end. Not may. It will. You'll have to give up visiting your son, or he'll have to move closer to you. The post-cheap-flight era will lead great swathes of people to work and holiday very differently.

Car use is also certainly problematic. However, with modern life centered around the car, the country will require major restructuration to enable life to carry on. At the moment, there isn't adequate public transport or distribution especially to less well connected rural villages. Cities will develop excellent connectivity in the new post-oil era (they'll be forced to become excellent). In cities, everyone lives in close proximity so I have great hopes for a whole range of projects like locally grown veg, extensive, reliable, safe and clean public transport systems, collectives and so on. However, outside cities, things will have to reimagined differently. For now, you're right, we do largely have to use cars (though if I lived in a city, I would use public transport and cycle - I did so very happily in my 20s).

Lots of people I know take the coach to Turkey / Romania / Morocco because it's a fucklot cheaper than flying with the whole family and they can take a lot more stuff with them for the folk back home.

fishlegs 2015 is 4 years ago. Current figures show China at almost twice as much and they are building more factories as we speak. They refuse to switch from coal to making any sort of commitment to green energy.

Yes, of course we need to stop buying shit from there, that's all part of it. I never said otherwise. But their population is FAR bigger than ours. Until you've lived in Asia, I think it's hard to imagine how little people care about green issues here. Everyone in my country has an SUV. They drive it to work despite the excellent transport system. Snacks are wrapped in unbelievable layers of packaging. No one thinks twice about leaving their trash on the ground or in the sea. The air is unbreathable six months of the year.

We can all make small changes, but small is all they are. If you want to make a difference, you need to actually lobby or work in a job creating green energy. The back patting over not going on holiday on here sickens me.

I really have no choice but to fly where I live. The nearest proper city is a nearly 8 hour drive away. There is a train but it only runs two days a week and takes 11 hours

Coach travel is horrible, anything over 3 hours and I'm out...but Trains can be amazing the world over because the experience can be so varied. You can't call yourself a traveller until you've experienced a sleeper train in Asia

I do try to be environmentally aware, I don't eat meat, I gave up my car and walk/cycle everywhere...but I do still use air travel. My Partner works over seas in the week. Sometimes he drives but if we go to see him we fly...we also take 3-4 trips abroad each year too. I'm aware that this isn't sustainable. I will be saving up to take a gap year with DD when she turns 18 though, our aim is to see as much as the world as possible with minimal flights.

Despite this I usually only fly once or twice a year.

If I lived in the UK or Europe I embrace the trains.

Aren’t Tesla, albeit slowly, developing solar powered airplanes? Those are the kind of steps that need to be made.

I also think that rather than travellers rallying up their carbon footprint and paying to offset their flights, the air travel companies should have to pay to offset their flights, and that it should be done without increased cost to travellers - until businesses are made to be culpable we’re not going to see big enough differences made to counter the effects of climate change.

But in answer to your question, I don’t think flying is the only way to travel but I would probably be inclined to research the footprint of all available options before choosing how to travel.

DH’s family live in Canada and the US - we aren’t going to stop seeing them regularly so will continue to fly. My family live in Belgium and although we sometimes fly there, we often get the train. DT’s are likely to be working in Europe and Asia when they finish Uni so there will be flights to visit them. I’d like to protect the environment but seeing family is the priority.

No.
I will fly. I will be berated by people who drive their car to buy meat to eat and take their lazy kids from their excessively large houses to school, but I will fly.

that's a really crappy false dichotomy martinidry.

If you want to make a difference, you need to actually lobby or work in a job creating green energy

DH does, thanks, so I'll continue to back pat over not holidaying. Also live in a tiny bungalow, I don't have a car, though DH has to in order to transport my wheelchair but chosen VERY carefully and used only when necessary. All vegan, DS walks/cycles to school. Just because we don't holiday doesn't mean we choose to ignore everything else we should be doing.

3.0L diesel coach engine

More like a 13 litre engine, as a PP posted 3 litre engines are for cars!

I haven't flown since 1998. I've always hated airports and when they started making you get there ludicrously early for security reasons post-9/11, I decided I really couldn't be arsed. We don't do resort holidays, so it hasn't really been much of a sacrifice.

We've been to Europe several times by train, by motorbike and by car since then. We live near a channel ferry port and Eurostar is quite accessible. I love train travel, and trains in Europe seem so clean and efficient compared to ours that I find it a real pleasure.

We're going to visit Vienna in the not-too-distant future, and plan to use the trains with an overnight journey and a sleeper. If anyone can recommend a good website for planning a journey like that, I'd love to know about it.

We've also talked about a trip to Sicily by train, and hiring a motorbike to travel round on, which would require nerves of steel. That might have to wait till we've retired though (only a few years off now, thankfully).