to ask if you would really make these journeys without flying for the sake of the environment

[IDSNeighbour]

I'm terrified of flying. I will fly but only if there is absolutely no other feasible way of getting somewhere.

I've just booked my transport for my summer holiday - 36 hours each way on long distance coaches for £230 instead of 2 hours each way on a plane for £160.

A couple of years ago I took 3 trains over about 48 hours to get to Russia for about £300 (I think - can't remember). I think flights took 4 hours though I think they were a similar price that time, not sure.

Other than fear (which isn't that common?), I can't think why anyone would choose a transport method that is both longer AND more expensive, except for environmental reasons. But these buses and trains are pretty popular and book up. I know some will only do one leg but the buses in particular are often straight through and the huge distance tickets are easy to source.

So I'm wondering if anyone would do this purely to lower their carbon footprint? Is it a reasonable expectation on people for the environment?

I don't have the figures etc but I'm not sure how a 3.0L diesel coach engine

Three litre? I have cars with bigger engines than that.

Three litre? I have cars with bigger engines than that.

Rather your carbon footprint than mine

I know you can flora - I have. I only fly if there's a massive ocean in the way. Europe, Asia and some of Africa I have done and will continue to do without flying.

But some people are saying that it isn't ethically right to travel at all - even via train or coach. I'm not prepared to make that kind of sacrifice.

I went to indonesia from europe without flying

Fuck coaches though- trains are miles better

Problem is there will not be much of the world left for anybody to see if we keep on with this much air travel.

No one would avoid it for environmental reasons. The people claiming otherwise are lying on the internet.

Being as island means i think brits are more tied in to the idea of flying. In europe train use is far preferable

jameswong

"No one would avoid it for environmental reasons. The people claiming otherwise are lying on the internet."

You seriously can't imagine someone caring about the environment, the place where their children and grandchildren will have to survive, enough to actually forego a trip to Disneyland or Spain? That is really worrying.

I don't really think that small individual steps are going to add up to much to be honest. It might make us feel a bit better, like we are doing something, but given how much pollution China and the USA produce alone, it's really doing fuck all.

We've been talking about saving the environment for decades and it has only gotten worse. Individual actions don't seem to make a difference at all.

Then there are rising Asian economies like Indonesia, India (both with huge populations), Malaysia, Vietnam which all have an increasing middle class who are keen to join the global economy. We in the west have had the privilege to travel abroad cheaply for decades: now the people of those countries want to be able to do so too, or to buy Starbucks in a takeout cup, or to buy plastic toys for their kids, or to have a massive SUV, or to wear imported designer clothes. I don't think we're easily going to change the minds of people living in those countries to go back to a simpler way of life when they are only just getting away from that way of life. I don't really know what the answer is there, because if you think big business in the UK doesn't give a shit about the environment, it's nothing compared to China and surrounding countries.

What we need is actual radical change: for big businesses to stop destroying the planet. People not taking a flight is not going to make them change their minds. Nothing short of them only making money by being more environmentally friendly will. I think people who only think about these things on an individual level and think they're doing well because of it are quite delusional and self-serving if I'm honest. It's relatively simple to avoid taking flights or to buy less plastic. What is harder is actually doing things that will change the minds of big business and governments.

No. Absolutely not. I'd fly

I did 24 hours on a coach once and that was so horrendous, I haven't been on a long distance coach since. I started hallucinating at about the 18 hour mark.

Trains are so much better. I would absolutely do those journeys on a train.

Years ago we drove from Yorkshire to Northern Spain and I'd love to do it again but it seems like madness in the days of low cost airlines. I have no idea how the costs or carbon footprint compares.

There is a Mumsnetter who's dad used to drive from the UK to Malta every year, presumably going all the way to southern Italy and then getting the ferry, which seems a bit mad.

I tend to agree with IAmAlwaysLikeThis. I lived in Vietnam in the late 90s and it was quite polluted then. Apparently it is way worse now. I still have friends living there and there are huge issues with pollution. Children are regularly kept inside at playtime at school due to air quality issues.

I have friends who live in Warsaw and they say it is extremely polluted there. As are many other parts of Europe. Coal is still used in many homes.

The sea of plastic we see regularly on the news apparently comes mainly from rivers in Asia.

I agree flying is not great and I am guilty of flying quite a bit but I really can’t see that people will change their flying habits much. Less business travel maybe - these days so much can be done with conference calls, Skype meetings etc.

I do think it’s good to be more aware obviously.

Impressed with the previous poster who hasn’t flown since 1979 for environmental reasons. I didn’t realise many people were that environmentally aware of the implications of air travel so long ago. Makes you think about the boom in low cost airlines and the impact they have had. In the 70s and 80s they didn’t really exist and people flew much less. Nobody would have dreamed of a hen or stag do in Europe. Or many of the other ‘cheap’ breaks etc that we are now so used to.

Bit sad to never see much of the world though

But sad to not have a world and all be dead though.

You're deluded if you yhink that this reduces your carbon footprint, sometimes hairshirts smply make you itchy. By all means make long trips by train, for the pleasure, but for that reason only, other than being scared to fly.

We did West Germany to Kent by train last year (DDs and I)... Partly for fun, partly because it was quicker door to door.
Slightly stressful at Brussels (25minute change, and out incoming train was 5minutes late... A sprint with a 5yo and luggage is not fun!).

I made the decision a few weeks ago that for environmental reasons I will only fly in the future in an absolute emergency (loved one dying on the other side of the planet sort of thing). Right now DS is 3 so I can't face long journeys so for the next couple of years we will stick to the UK. Then we will start using the Eurostar to visit places in Northern Europe.

Once DS is a teenager I am really looking forward to trying some long distance train journeys as I have read about some absolutely stunning routes and will view the journey as part of the holiday. Admittedly I can't see myself doing long distance coach journeys as I am not a fan of coaches but I love train travel.

London to paris return per passenger

Eurostar 2.75 hours 22kg co2

Plane 3.5 hours 244kg co2

What say you? @LadyRannaldini

Source www.seat61.com/CO2flights.htm

And you are talking complete tosh James! I want my son to have a habitable planet to live on and I am more than happy to make sacrifices to try to make that happen.

@Symbol I don't fly. I think flying should be regulated with people only allowed a certain number of flights over a period of time. People should not be allowed to wreck the environment for their own pleasure. Too many people regularly fly long haul.

What about flying for business????

I would love to go by train but would make it part of the holiday with several different stops.

Yes someone just posted the figures. I don't believe most people realise how polluting air travel is.
We could probably afford some short hall European holidays but have not done so as the thought of getting on a plain and producing that much CO2 for a holiday upsets me to much.

I don't think their is anything wrong with not travelling. It's making yourself learn about the rest of the world. My dad has been on many holidays and comes back saying oh did you know this often I do already as I'm interested in learning about the world we live in. Where he seems to have needed to actually go there.

Although business travel is what makes up most of air travel. I do think business should be making more of an effort to use alternative technology for communications where possible. But the government makes to much money from aviation so I'm not sure who would drive it.

I have friends who haven't flied for many, many years for environmental reasons. I fly once or twice a year for family reasons. Each time I check the trains I at the prices. This year will be my last family flight and the Extinction Rebellion made me think again about trains. Still ridiculously expensive, triple the price for an out-of-season flight :(. I am so about that - why the fuck is air fuel subsided to this point? My DH insists it's market economics, that if the UK don't subsidise, other countries will and grab the passengers and their tourist pounds. Sigh. Whatever the government is doing, I'm taking responsibility for my own travel. After this flight, I won't be going off on holidays that need a plane. Plenty of great locations in the UK and northern Europe.

London to Paris does not take 3.5 hours. It would only take that long if you did it in two legs.
I travelled from Munich to Paris on the TGV last year and it was way better than flying. Door to door it was the same except when we arrived we were in central Paris.

Not by coach, but I would by train-- have travelled to the middle East and N Africa by train and would do further afield.

Unfortunately I do have to fly for work (not for profit). But I try and keep that to a minimum and use Skype etc as much as possible. Things have got much better in that regard over the last 10 years.

As the kids get older I'm looking forward to longer train journeys with them- they are good on trains and it's preferable to entertain them on a train to being trapped in a departure lounge.
We're going to do no fly 2020 and then see beyond that. It is more expensive but the price of travel has become artificially low over the last 20 years.