To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

Isabella - "I’m a Londoner. I agree with him."

I too agree with Cleese. Capital cities should be mixed of course, but not to the extent that the host culture is knocked out.

The poster who said - Regarding Charlie Hebdo, and the question of publishing images: there’s no real detriment, but equally there was no great advantage to publishing cartoons which were offensive to some. So on the whole, they shouldn’t really have been published.

I find this to be faulty and dangerous thinking. No one of the muslim faith buys and reads Hebdo or other magazines. To say that that magazine should not have continued to make political and sarcastic statements & pictures because it may offend "some" is the first step to bending over and appeasing.

I find it very offensive that when I am sitting in Paris enjoying a glass of wine, the restaurant gets shot up and people have their lives taken from them. That is offensive.

not to the extent that the host culture is knocked out

It really hasn’t been knocked out. Added to which, many 2nd and 3rd generation children are now part of that “host” culture. But they might not be “English” in a narrow sense, no. They are British however.

But they might not be “English” in a narrow sense, no.

So John Cleese was correct.

No because his view of what is English or not is narrow and out of date, and based on precedent, he was probably being pejorative.

In Islam the animal has to be alive to hear the Bismillah prayer and this is what happens now.
Wow I bet the animal sure appreciates that.

Capital cities should be mixed of course, but not to the extent that the host culture is knocked out.

So the "host culture" (which does sound like something you'd treat with very strong antibiotics anyway) needs to be set in stone, unchanging, immutable ?

No because his view of what is English or not is narrow and out of date

40% of London’s population is of foreign birth. So a sizeable amount of people who are not English. It is the least ‘English’ city in England.

he was probably being pejorative

That you cannot know, and it’s no one’s business to speculate. ‘I know what you said, but what you really mean is...’ - no. You cannot interpret people’s words based on what you think they mean, otherwise language is pointless and you can attribute any motives to anyone without foundation.

I wonder what some parents would do if their young non-christian children were 'forced' to sit at the same dinner table as a gay/christian girl/boy. Would they congregate outside the school and protest it was against their protected religious rights?

It would seem to me the same scenario as the parents who are protesting outside schools that their children should not be taught that it is normal and natural to be homosexual.

You can say our legal system will sort it out. But that is the significance of the Charlie Hebdo killings. An ideology that refused to accept the law was able to create enough fear that they brought in de facto blasphemy laws. So even though you are allowed to criticise an ideology you better not criticise a specific one, on fear of death.

A head might think of teaching lgbt equality or forcing some children to allow a christian girl to eat with them. But if some parents cause enough fear the school will back down because they will be afraid of the consequences. The parents certainly wont be afraid of the law.

Multiculturalism has failed because some cultures refuse equality/integration, want their beliefs to be dominant over the hosts and will fight to make that happen. RIP London.

Finborough, it was me, I don't pretend to have the last word on the question of whether they should have been published or not, but for clarity publication was in no sense a justification for any kind of violence at all and certainly not for killings or the way they were carried out. I am in no danger of appeasing that.

So the "host culture" (which does sound like something you'd treat with very strong antibiotics anyway) needs to be set in stone, unchanging, immutable ?

You could say the same about the incoming one couldn't you? Which is the one which should change the most? Are you seriously asking that we in Britain should adopt Islamic ways? Which ones did you have in mind?

So the "host culture" (which does sound like something you'd treat with very strong antibiotics anyway) needs to be set in stone, unchanging, immutable ?

The point I’d like to make is that the change has to be slow and organic. The speed and scale of such immigration as the UK has seen in recent decades was always going to be unworkable. Why do some in Boston, purely American for generations now, think of the IRA fondly, as brothers in common cause? Hundreds of years ago their distant ancestors emigrated from Ireland and they still retain affection for and affiliation with those roots. No one arrives from Afghanistan in 2016 and immediately becomes European in thought, word and deed. This stuff won’t be resolved in our lifetimes, or our children’s. Humans are very slow to change.

40% of London’s population is of foreign birth. So a sizeable amount of people who are not English. It is the least ‘English’ city in England.

That would include my ex who is Indian and came here when he was 10. He has always and only had a British passport due to the empire. English is his mother tongue and this is home. India is not. There are many like him. They belong here, not in their country of origin which they lived in so long ago that they no longer fit in. Or that they rarely visit.

He might “look” different to John Cleese, but in fact he isn’t.

London has become an International City. No shit Sherlock. I'm non white English, born and raised in London. And obviously a racist too for making the above statement. Why are people so quick to be professionally offended by a truthful observation?

Or take me, white, born here and English sounding. Alright for the likes of John Cleese.

But I have an English parent, and a continental one, and grew up in a third continental country. In fact my ex has spent a higher proportion of his life in England.

Yet to John Cleese my ex is the foreigner, and I am not.

I think in the future we will have a Balkan's situation I do agree with Brit to some extent about the % and the domination factor.

You have to look at how other religions are treated in some Middle Eastern countries.

Why are people so quick to be professionally offended by a truthful observation?

It’s a perfectly accurate system of fact, but his detractors are confusing race and culture. London was ethnically different in years gone by and so was the culture. People have been quick to attack him for having fondness for that culture, equate it with racism and point out that London is a now wonderful multicultural city, but they’re just proving his point.

You are right Apollo, too many people just waiting to be offended on someone else's behalf. Truthful observations are even seen as racist.

This says it all:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/03/john-cleeses-tweets-werent-just-racist-they-were-also-based-historical-lie/%3foutputType=amp

Everyone cleaves to their own. There is nothing wrong in being wistful and sad about the passing of a culture that was generated by English in England. Why is it alright for others to prefer their own culture, but Brits are not allowed to?

The immigration to UK that came after WW2 came here for safety. They got their heads down, worked hard and slowly progressed. No demos with hate-speech placards, no violence (Oldham recently), no organised attacks on women in their new country.

Isabella, we had a similar, although not as extreme experience, it was mainly low-level religious bullying and lack of any social interaction, not outright nasty but enough to make us feel unwelcome and not part of the school community. In the end, as we couldn't move either school or house we pulled DS out and joined the HE community where we are, but we were lucky as what I do makes that possible. We are now like you moving country. We're not in London but a large city. I feel the issue is not necessarily down to a diverse population but percentage. My DH is not English but an EU national.

I'm excited about going somewhere else as what we will do is going to be quite different and really exciting!

Pointless2 I am not English, but British because my parents were not born in this country, but I was. But my culture is English. The link to article you attached was written by a Marxist who talks about immigration from the 16th century, and I'm not sure what the relevance is supposed to be.

“You have to look at how other religions are treated in some Middle Eastern countries.”

Yes. Ir’s absolutely shocking. Have any of those countries become Muslim through immigration?

Why is it alright for others to prefer their own culture, but Brits are not allowed to?

Well, this is the burning question. I can’t understand it. We’re seemingly happy for others to come, live and bring their ideas and culture with them. If you have a fondness for English culture you’re deemed a racist and a xenophobe. It’s as though our own English identity is nothing, as though it’s rotten at the core with a hole that needs to be filled with other faiths, other languages, other cuisine. Bizarre and masochistic.