To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

I'm also surprised that some posters are denying that starting school in the UK without speaking much English can be detrimental for children. It's common sense, surely?

It may be "common sense" but you need evidence for big claims Iike this.

London schools, which have a very high proportion of children with English as a second language, achieve better results than schools in many other parts of the country.

Being bilingual is normal in many countries.

In my children's secondary school classes - in a deprived area - almost all of the highest achievers are the children of immigrants who speak a different language at home.

“I'm also surprised that some posters are denying that starting school in the UK without speaking much English can be detrimental for children. It's common sense, surely?“

That’s the problem with common sense. It’s often not.

@MatthewBramble that’s possibly the most pompous post I have ever read on Mumsnet. You are not a great advert for Londoners.

John cleese said this in 2011 too.

We could have had this same thread reading the same way 20 years ago or 100 years ago. Same as people are always in a moral panic about the 'youth of today'. From ancient Greece to yesterday.

This is a really fascinating thread that I've stayed up too long reading ! It is good to start seeing some honest swapping of opinions about the reality of multiculturalism. The truth is that this is a large country with a lot of people in it with diverse regions and therefore we will all have different experiences within it.

My problem is that I would not want to see a more nuanced understanding of the lack of integration of different cultures in England be used to bring back a very narrow understanding of what constitutes 'Englishness'. St George's Day has been mentioned - not only was he not English, he was chosen as a Saint for England by an Angevin King who spent as little time here as possible, disliked the place and never spoke English himself. In addition to the links with right wing nationalism, it has links to Christianity. The St George's flag is a cross. It is only recently that Christianity has resurged in Britain, it was quietly dying out - probably until the contrast with resurgent fundamentalist Islam brought it back to the fore. Football has been mentioned FGS! It wasn't long ago that most women could openly acknowledge that that was largely a male thing, and it has strong links to violence and tribalist outlooks too.

There is a middle ground between the extremes of tribalist, nationalist expressions of 'English' - which may or may not mean very much to some of us who, not being middle class, have not much idea of ancestry here beyond our grandparents - and having English nationality spoken of as something to be ashamed of. There has to be. Traditional badges such as football and St George I don't think are the way to find it. You make me a new English flag, showing the Tudor Rose perhaps - I can't think of a better symbol of union in England - and I will fly it with pleasure.

London school achieve better results as they received substantially more funding than schools outside of London. I suspect it also has a lot to do with London attracting better teachers. The top London state schools I know tend to me in white, middle class areas. As for the white working class being the worse performers, it's actually white working class boys and maybe we should look at why that is. Maybe because every other race/religion/creed/colour and even sex is championed, celebrated, encouraged, except poor white working class boys who get jack shit. Makes me really sick. I would like to see a new initiative focuses on those kids and trying to help THEM for a change. Immigrants are given every help you can imagine to settle, integrate and make a success of their lives. Why can't we do this for our own kids?

DarkAtEnd, we shouldn't have to redefine English culture. We should just be able to allow it to exist being being ashamed of it or it being a dirty word. It doesn't need reinventing simply because you think it has some less than attractive feature. Every culture has good and bad in it; none are all good and none are all bad.

Immigrants are given every help you can imagine to settle, integrate and make a success of their lives.

This is not true, there are plenty of immigrant families and their children living in poverty.

Just as it’s not true that immigrant families get preferentially treated in regards to housing.

And London has now lost its extra funding to rural areas to attempt to address the budgeting imbalance.

Regarding celebrating English culture, no one is being stopped from doing anything, but there are many ways of being English and of celebrating it if people want to.

FedUpMum40 - I checked your assertion about Romanians in Burnt Oak. Firstly, Burnt Oak is a suburb of Edgware which itself is a suburb of London. I don’t know how big that makes it but it’s not an isolated village somewhere.

Secondly, Wikipedia has 14% of the population as being “other White”, ie not English or Irish. So that includes all White immigrants. A percentage of those will be Romanian. You don’t know how many, but won’t be quite as many as you make out.

Thirdly, all places being Romanian shops and restaurants. Google shows three restaurants, a patisserie, a fast-food place and a supermarket. This includes Burnt Oak and Edgeware.

So I don’t know if you’ve been there or you have an agenda and are just regurgitating things you’ve heard. Do some research, it took me longer writing this than researching.

Can people just stop and think before trying to rationalise and normalise fascism? There are a few deeply unpleasant posts on here. “If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.”

When people talk about celebrating Englishness and English culture what do they mean?

Immigrants are given every help you can imagine to settle, integrate and make a success of their lives.

Hahaha.

Hahhahhahahahaa.

Hahahahahahahhahahahahaahhaha!

You should do stand up, mate

@BertrandRussell

You have a habit of asking fatuous questions.

“You have a habit of asking fatuous questions.”

Possibly. But I don’t think that is one.

@BertrandRussell
I do think it's a good question but one that can't really be answered. Trying to define something means there is an immutable quality to it. However cultures keep changing with time, they evolve like living things. Perhaps the question should be what is English culture now ? Cleese' s comment just highlights that 70s Englishness maybe wasn't quite the same as today's.
I think identity is made of 3 aspects: who you feel you are, the connection with your surroundings and how others see you. I think a strong sense of identity can really only emerge if all 3 points align, otherwise there's a disconnect.
I can mean people feel alienated if the location they used to see as theirs has evolved too quickly and it messes up with their identity.

When people talk about celebrating Englishness and English culture what do they mean?

Oh FGS. We're seriously doing 'sum up a culture in a post' again?

I'm assuming we're broadly on the same side Bert, but when people start this nonsense, I get a flash of what drives undecided people to the right wing/ kipperhood/ Farage.

Look at the latest polls. We're in danger of getting actual Brexit MPs. Stop alienating the undecideds out there.

Of course there is an English culture. It's constantly evolving but it exists.

LadyWithLapdog

FedUpMum40 - I checked your assertion about Romanians in Burnt Oak

The beauty of having a point of view on issues like this, is it's all about "da feelz" - facts become irrelevant. Remember: "I think we've all had enough of experts" ? This is where it ends up. Where thousands - nay millions - of man-hours of research; millions of pounds, can be dismissed by someone saying Yes, but this happened to a friend of mine ...

It's no use pointing out (for example) that Muslims make up less than 6% of the population of the UK. Because "everyone knows" we are being overrun ...

“Of course there is an English culture. It's constantly evolving but it exists.“

I’m sure there is and I’m sure it does. I’m just not sure what it is. Last Night of the Proms? Morris dancing? Roast beef? Shakespeare? None of those things seem to be in decline. Which in the case of Morris dancing is a mixed blessing........

Go and ask another nation to define their culture. Stop riling the brexiters.That's how we got here.

Stop riling the brexiters.That's we got here.
Why is discussing culture riling brexiters though? Why is it such an uncomfortable question?

It’s very difficult to define any culture. But the suppression of the English culture in England is a recurring theme. Surely it’s reasonable to ask what is meant by that?

It's not an 'uncomfortable' question, it's an almost unanswerable question (when asked of any culture). Only the extreme lunatic fringe think it's some kind of 'gotcha' point.

If we could get any of these interlinked discussions back onto the sensible middle ground, we'd have a chance of staying in the EU.

It’s very difficult to define any culture. But the suppression of the English culture in England is a recurring theme. Surely it’s reasonable to ask what is meant by that?

Sure. Ask them what the supposed 'suppression' is. Not what English culture is.

It’s very difficult to define any culture

What is this supposed to mean? It’s really not that hard. I’m not English, so can’t presume to answer that for you, but cultural values are very easy to pinpoint. Yes, they are generalizations, but you cannot let outliers define the whole, or else you get vacuous questions like, “what is Englishness?”

It gives a lot of fodder for foreigners to complain about too

So English cultural values. Fairness. Resilience. Reserve. Modesty. Is that what you mean?