To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

Just to offset John Cleese a bit

I wasn't taken in because it wasn't a message I wanted to believe. I wasn't a target for the message. I'm married to an EU citizen, we met as an indirect result of both of us participating in the Erasmus scheme. I'm the last person that Leave would target.

You’ve proved my point then. Your life experiences have led you to that conclusion. Your experiences of EU membership have been positive. You’ve travelled, studied, met your spouse. So of course you don’t want to believe that the opposite may be the case for some people. My life experiences have led me in another direction. My experiences have largely been negative. I’ve never benefited in the way that you have. Neither of us are wrong - we’re just different.

Calling the entire process - the second largest democratic process in the world - undemocratic/unelected

If you’re happy for the EU Commission to propose legislation, and you feel that’s democratic, then that’s fine. I’m not.

My experiences have largely been negative. I’ve never benefited in the way that you have.
What have been your negative experiences? - particularly the ones you think are the fault of UK being a member of the EU.

I look at those who I know voted Leave, and that includes close family, some friends and ex-friends*, and none of them have had any obvious direct negative experiences associated with the UK's EU membership. And when I ask them about why they voted that way the response is either vague, unrelated, or demonstrably false.

• it's about immigration, but of course not my spouse, they don't mean people like that (if that isn't the definition of racism, I don't know what is). Ask them further and it's entirely about non-white, non-christian non-EU immigration which is not controlled by EU rules - it's the UK's choice.

• it's about Turkey joining the EU. One of the most demonstrably false claims by the Leave campaign. Turkey won't be joining in a hurry. Their progress towards achieving the required entry criteria is well publicised and has been going backwards from a very low starting score.

• its about Merkel/Germany. I really struggle with this one, is it sexist or racist? Ask them further and it's Germany's economic strength, something about the EU being the Fourth Reich, or Syrian refugees (who don't have the right to travel outside Schengen, and don't have the right to settle outside Germany).

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• not ex-friends because they voted Leave, but because they went full-on EDL/BNP about it. Some of the stuff appearing on my social media feeds was extreme.

If you’re happy for the EU Commission to propose legislation, and you feel that’s democratic, then that’s fine. I’m not.

The EU Commission is democratic. There's one Commissioner appointed by each democratically elected EU government. The process of developing EU regulations and legislation is open and transparent.

We don't teach/discuss enough about the process of EU legislation in the UK. The difference between a Directive and a Regulation is lost on most people, but it's very significant and affects, at the most basic level, who's to blame for the wording of the laws we have to comply with. The UK is very good at over-egging the pudding when it comes to implementing Directives into domestic legislation. But if the public isn't informed about the process, how can they hold the UK politicians to blame for over-complex legislation?

And when I ask them about why they voted that way the response is either vague, unrelated, or demonstrably false.

@DogInATent Why do you think people need to justify why they voted leave? It's got nothing to do with you what way other people voted. It's between them and their ballot paper. Don't you know how rude it is to ask people which way they voted? AND THEN TO EXPECT THEM TO JUSTIFY IT TO YOU?!

Some people are THAT thick. I know people who think this too. And someone I used to know swore down that there were 13 'calendar months' in the year. Even when presented with the evidence, she wouldn't back down.

Oooops wrong thread. As you were.......

Why do you think people need to justify why they voted leave?
I didn't really need to ask, most of them were pushing it my way thinking I'd agree with them before and after the vote. You've never had real-life discussions with people that have views different to yours?

But yes, I will challenge someone's views when they're sitting opposite myself and my EU spouse telling us how fantastic they think Jacob Rees-Mogg is after he's just been interviewed saying all EU immigrants should have their right to remain in the UK removed. And that's not the least palatable of his bigoted views.

(in case anyone gets any wrong ideas, I'm not a Corbynite-lefty - I don't see how anyone pro-EU could be. Just in case anyone was readying that trope)

Well I voted to remain and my answer as to why would also have been something incredibly vague, especially 3 years ago. I suspect many people were in that position. Luckily not one single leaver demanded that I explain my vote.

Some Leaves talk about sovereignty, and I used to be very dismissive of that. But I think I understand - and respect - that position better now.

@DogInATent

I’m perfectly aware of how the EU Commission is appointed, you don’t need to explain it to me.

You see that process as democratic- I don’t, so we’ll have to agree to disagree. The further up the hierarchy of power you go, the further removed you are from accountability to the ordinary person who must abide by the legislation you propose. I disagree with the principle.

You've never had real-life discussions with people that have views different to yours?

Yes but I don't ask people which way they vote and I don't tell them the way I do either.

I disagree with the principle.

Yup, and I don't think it's so far different to the UK

• an unelected Prime Minister
• a FPTP system that can give a majority where one doesn't exist
• an appointed House of Lords
• variable value assigned to votes depending how marginal the seat is

There are a lot of things I'd change in politics, beginning with the UK system first. Democracy could be an awful lot more democratic.

Given the choice I'd put the handbrake on Brexit, implement complete reform of the UK political system with proportional representation (the German system is pretty good once you get your head around the variable number of MPs - it retains a directly elected constituency MP), and deal with the underlying issue of people not feeling represented and listened to.

Then I'd re-introduce the EU question after the more fundamental and basic issues have been addressed. Remove the more general protest element from the equation and make it clear on the terms of the leaving deal that was being offered.

There are a lot of things I'd change in politics, beginning with the UK system first. Democracy could be an awful lot more democratic.

(Snipped rest of big quote)
Isn’t your idea just as much unicorns and rainbows as much as leavers are oft accused of. Which party are going to introduce these sweeping electoral reforms?

Isn’t your idea just as much unicorns and rainbows as much as leavers are oft accused of. Which party are going to introduce these sweeping electoral reforms?
Well... it's not in the interests of either the Conservatives or Labour, but it benefits everyone else.

The Lib Dems, Green Party, SNP, Plaid Cymru and UKIP made a cross-party petition for electoral reform in 2015. It's been a Lib Dem manifesto commitment for a long time (although they favour the ATV system) and the Greens have had proposals for changing the structure of democracy for a while as well. So it is only the two larger parties that are blocking it (assuming Farage imposes similar policies to UKIP to such issues onto his new party).

I remember the ER referendum from 2011, it failed by a large margin - but it was biased by offering an AV solution that was the least desirable to many in favour of the principle of ER. Like Brexit, a single referendum could never cover the whole issue. Have one to approve the idea in principal, appoint a commission to identify alternative options and publish factual information about their likely outcomes, have the final selection confirmed by a second public vote.

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It's an achievable idea, and the timing is currently very good. Government is about to decamp out of the Palace of Westminster to allow for extensive repairs. Instead rebuilding what's there now and having two sides face-off against each other shouting and booing, we could change the layout to something more conducive to listening and agreeing consensus.

Amazed at all the people on this thread who say they don't hear English spoken on the street in the places they live. I've lived in the same part of inner London for 25 years, and I hear lots of English spoken on the street. I have to go to lots of other areas of inner London for work, among them the ones that are often said to be the least "white British" areas in the city, and I hear plenty of English spoken on the streets there, too. Maybe some people just don't notice English being spoken, and do notice other languages.

I suppose it depends where you are. I poddled off to the supermarket yesterday and heard Spanish, Italian and French, various Arabic and a smattering of English. Don’t see the problem really.

Maybe some people just don't notice English being spoken, and do notice other languages. No! I live in a very white, very rural, small market town. During the day time it is very unusual to hear English spoken in the street - and yes, it is busy. Inside shops, cafes etc yes, but not as you walk past people.

We have a high number of Eastern European residents. Decades ago they would have been seasonal workers. Nowadays they live here all year round. Some own local businesses and shops, many work very locally and walk to and from work, round town at lunch time etc.

It isn't that I don't notice English being spoken it just is very much a minority language during the daytime. It's a peculiarity of the way people here live and work.

If you are not from here you would be very surprised by it as it is so very noticeable.

I miss living in London (minus the crime).

Where we are it’s a mix of residents, people who come over for a few months (summer usually) and tourists (lots of hotels). But then you would hear my BIL talking away at his kids (he wants them to be bilingual) and then switch to his broad London mother tongue.

@AlaskanOilBaron

"And predictions that never came to pass. They got it spectacularly wrong."

Wow, impressed by your ability to see into the future there! You do realise those predictions were about leaving, something that hasn't actually happened yet?!

London is now perceived to be less welcoming anyway:

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/visitors-from-eu-countries-to-london-falls-750000-amid-brexit-boycott-a4041706.html

The minority who benefit from 'multiculturalism' want more of it the majority who dont are ignored, called racists and they are the ones forced to change.

Whatever Farages motivations he is the only one standing up for a large part of the English population.

Whatever Farages motivations he is the only one standing up for a large part of the English population.

No he isn’t.