To be angry about the Oritse Williams rape case?

[prettyinpink23x]

He's been found not guilty today by a Jury.

So many people on twitter are saying 'name and shame the woman, she's lied' 'she deserves a prison sentence'. This is infuriating! Do these people not realise that 'not guilty' does not equate with innocent and it doesn't mean she's lied?

Is it unreasonable for me to be angry about this?

@Graphista. I’m not saying it’s right but I think the reason why rape is treated differently to most other crimes is because in a sense, it IS different to other crimes.

By that I mean it’s pretty much the only crime where the burden isn’t on proving whether the act was committed by an individual or not but whether consent was given to commit that act.

In other crimes guilt is potentially easier to establish because for instance DNA evidence can prove that the perpetrator was at the scene etc. The proesectution doesn’t have to further prove that the victim didn’t actually give consent for whatever happened next.

@Graphista

How on earth have I deliberately misrepresented and misquoted you? I have copied and pasted from your post. I have quoted exactly what you wrote so how have I misquoted you?

As for misrepresenting you - your post was asking how people are teaching sons to understand and ask for consent. You made no reference to girls needing to also understand and ask for consent so I am not misrepresenting you by raising the question about girls too. You did not mention anything about girls in that post so it isn't misrepresenting you by drawing attention to it.

In fact, you are misrepresenting me by suggesting that I have ignored parts of your post - which I clearly haven't as you didn't mention it.

I do think that we need proper discussions about consent and that both parties need to get it and give it. Too often this seems to be presented as something that men ask for and women give but it shouldn't be. Women are equally responsible for asking their male partners for consent too but I rarely see this being stated.

But even if consent is given how does anyone prove this? What if consent is given but then at some point during sex, withdrawn? If sex continues past that it is either rape or sexual assault but how would anyone prove that? These are genuine questions. As I have said above, I can only remember 1 instance in my life where I have been specifically asked for, and have given, consent. I have never asked any of my partners for consent. It has just been assumed that we are both consenting as things progress. In the light of these discussions however I am thinking that this is wrong.

Decomp, I think you are perhaps focusing too much on consent being explicit and verbal. Most people are very adept at non-verbal communication and in the majority of intimate liaisons that is sufficient. I can certainly tell when my partner is enthusiastically receptive to something and when they aren't just by their body language, facial expressions and noises. If I'm going to try something I'll make it very clear what my intentions are and look for feedback. Any lack of positive feedback and I'll take the hint. If I'm ever in doubt I'll ask.
The vast majority of men are perfectly capable of reading the signals as I do. The sad truth is too many just don't give a shit. They see sex as an entitlement. They've been conditioned to believe that sexual achievement defines them as a man and so it is not just physical desire that motivates them but their egos as well. There is also social conditioning that allows some men to delude themselves that "no" means "maybe" and they see it as perfectly acceptable to press on regardless of any resistance.
We need to keep hammering home the message that "no means no" and that it doesn't actually need to be spoken. More than that, we need to hammer home the message that the only valid consent is enthusiastic consent and in the absence of clear consent the default must be to assume there is none.
"I thought you'd never ask, now get into this bed and take me to the moon" is an example of spoken enthusiastic consent. "FFS, if you really must just get on with it" is an example of consent that is clearly not enthusiastic. It might satisfy the letter of the law but should not satisfy any reasonable person's moral definition of true consent.

We also need to educate that consent is never a blank cheque (consent to some sexual activities is not consent to anything and everything), it is dynamic and it can be withdrawn at any time. Both sexes need to get that message. Men need to get it into their skulls that they are entitled to nothing and women need to be educated and given the confidence to know that they don't have to do anything they don't want to and any partner worth being intimate with should fully accept that.

The focus of this thread has been about failings of the justice system. Whilst there are certainly improvements that can be made as to how rape cases are dealt with, it's impossible to have a fair justice system that will see every rapist convicted because too often there is no other evidence than the word of the victim. That's grossly unfortunate but I think it's fair to say that whilst most victims crave justice they would far rather not have been victims in the first place. We need to focus on the root causes and deal with them. It's not an easy task and would require undoing generations of social programming but it could be done.

Sorry, I've ended up writing much more than I intended.

TooTrueToBeGood

That was the point I was trying to make though - my relationships have progressed with non verbal cues. But thinking about it, they are open to interpretation aren't they?

How do you describe that on the witness stand? How your partner reacted that meant that you were sure that they consented?

@tootruetobegood

I do agree we need to educate about consent however I think the majority of rapists know full well what consent is and act against it. Of course sometimes there is a grey area in certain rape cases but even if a rapist was sat down and informed about consent I think that they would still rape. I was told by the police that rape is less about the sexual aspect and more about having power and control over a vulnerable woman. The guy who did it to me had done it before and his MO both times was being sober, finding the drunkest most vulnerable girl and using this as a way to rape them. He obviously knew this was wrong but did it for whatever reason psychological or otherwise. So whilst enthusiastic consent helps the grey area I don't think it will protect people against rapists who are intent to cause harm. But then that also applies to murderers etc too. So its a difficult situation.

"I thought you'd never ask, now get into this bed and take me to the moon" is an example of spoken enthusiastic consent

Is it? What has been consented to? Only what I might think I've consented to and what my partner thinks I've consented to might be entirely different things.

And again if it went to court and I say that I didn't indicate my consent, even non verbally, but he says that I did by my actions who can really determine who is correct?

I am definitely aware of times when I've been more up for it than my partner and have basically set out to get him in the mood. Whilst he wasn't saying no he wasn't enthusiastic. So is that assault? I'm thinking now that yes it probably was because I was relying on him to say "no" which he didn't, he just reluctantly went along with it.

It was just an example decomp and i was more interested in the second one to demonstrate an example of clearly unenthusiastic verbal consent. Read the bit where i stated that consent is not a blank check in respect of what is being consented to - consent is an ongoing process.

I think you are worrying too much about consent when the genders are reverse. It is different and besides, whilst everyone should of course be treated with respect, the ugly reality is that sexual assaults and rapes by men against women are so common you could reasonably consider it a problem of epidemic proportions. For women, men (not all obviously but far too many) represent a real and present danger. It's not the same for men. I've been touched without being asked a few times in my life. It didn't terrify me or leave me traumatised. I don't break out in a cold sweat when out late at night and realise there's a woman walking up behind me in an otherwise deserted street. I don't worry for my safety when in a minicab with a female driver. I don't have to deal with women routinely rubbing against me inappropriately, groping me or harrassing me. I don't have to worry that most women could physically overpower me quite easily if they choose to do so.

Here's another interesting difference between the genders. Not that it's necessarily relevent to your points but for the sake of discussion. Look at the difference between how society traditionally treats men and women when it comes to sex. A man who has lots of different partners might be described as a success with the ladies. By contrast there are a host of highly derogatory terms for women deemed to be too sexually liberal. I think that language, or more accurately the attitudes it reveals, is very telling as to why we have a rape culture. We actually encourage men to take the role of predator and women to feign the role of prey. That is how society says the mating
game can be played. The problem is, when it stops being a game some people clearly find it difficult to tell the difference.

Prettyinpink, I agree with you but there are a variety of common rape scenarios. What you describe is of course all too common. Even more common I believe is rape within established relationships - husbands or boyfriends who choose not to take no (spoken or non-verbal) for an answer or who believe it's perfectly acceptable to use coercion or emotional blackmail or unacceptable perseverance. They often don't get the gravity of what they've done and don't see themselves for the rapists they are. Even their victims often don't get it. How many threads have we seen on MN over the years by women who have quite clearly been raped/sexually assaulted by their partner and were at best confused and at worst completely in denial?

And again if it went to court and I say that I didn't indicate my consent, even non verbally, but he says that I did by my actions who can really determine who is correct?

That is a major problem when it comes to getting justice for the victim, i think we've already established that. Crimes though are defined by statute and common law. A crime doesn't cease to be a crime just because the prosecution can't prove the case beyond reasonable doubt. If it happened, it happened.

@tootruetobegood Yes thats true but I think their husbands or boyfriends are often feigning ignorance when they do that rather than genuinely not understanding what consent is. They know what consent is but have decided because its their wife/ girlfriend that they are entitled to them or that there will be no consequences which is morally wrong in itself. Telling those men about consent would have little impact I believe. I read a thread where a womans husband had sex with her when she was asleep and didnt view it as a big deal even though she had never allowed him to do that. For me, he knew what he was doing was wrong as would most men. You dont just sleep with somebody whos unconscious unless you have been given explicit permission to do so (for some people this is a fetish I think). Of course there are certain men who may benefit from it it obviously depends on the circumstance.

And I think these men rely on their partner being confused about the situation to get away with it.

I think that, within the context of relationships, women probably co erce men into having sex more often than they would like to admit to, so I do think that consent absolutely needs to go both ways.

And yes, I've read on here posts from women who have been assaulted while they sleep by partners. I've also had friends tell me how they've woken up boyfriends or husbands with blow jobs etc. That is also wrong, surely?

As for women being slut shamed - I have never heard a man saying this (maybe they just don't say it in front of me?). The judgement that I have heard has always come from other women so maybe we need to re examine attitudes to sex across the board?

It doesn't solve the issue of rape but I think we do need to change attitudes to sex amongst the public because that is who juries are made up of.

Maybe that's why we get majority female juries finding men not guilty, because they are judging the female victims more harshly?

I think instead of focusing on gender is a spectrum and kids can have two dads or two moms or any combination of the above in schools (my kids have no issues with this and have not been "taught" by school) we should focus on consent every fucking time personal boundaries and respect

@DecomposingComposers

With regards to the blowjob comment, I said about establishing prior consent for those type of things. If a man says I would like to be woken up with one and a woman did that then that's not wrong. If she did this without his consent that would be wrong, yes.

I hear both men and women slut shaming. Some men seem to have this 'lad' mentality where they objectify women and view them as conquests. But I agree some women are very judgemental towards other women.

Yes you are spot on with that. I said to my police officer I am surprised he was found not guilty because my jury was made up of more women than men. She said that she would actually prefer a majority male jury because women are more likely to judge fellow women more harshly.

@Graphista i agree with your posts. Ive PMed you btw.

Prettyinpink, I have absolute no doubt a lot of them know exactly what they are doing and fully get the gravity of it. It's so hard to cover all my thoughts in a few posts but I am definitely not making excuses for anyone. If it helps, I stand firmly by the principle that ignorance is no excuse anyway.

I'm sorry you've been a victim and I'm sorry you were denied justice. Sincerely.

I personally think one of the major issues is men view sex very differently to women.

A lot of men don't see rape as that damaging to a woman. That's why they do it. For many it's not a violent act, it's not a sadistic act or act of power. Simply they want sex and feel that it's not that bigger deal to take it from someone who's not that up for it, especially if she's blackout drunk and/or they don't "hurt" them. And they tell themselves, there all up for it anyway. Or, I'd love it if a woman came onto me like that.

That sort of rapist does it because he doesn't see himself as a rapist and doesn't think he's really doing anything wrong.

Just read some of the men's rights redit threads.

@prettyinpink23x

I totally get your comment about giving prior consent but that hasn't happened in the situations I've mentioned - I honestly think that people just haven't thought that much about what they are doing. I really think that we have to talk about this and open up discussions about it.

I'm sure that it won't make any difference to the men who intend to commit rape but maybe it will at least reduce the number of instances where partners feel coerced or have just gone along with something when actually they didn't want to.

And yes, hopefully it can educate would be jurors to understand that what a woman was wearing, or doing or saying even in the seconds before the rape really don't matter because she could have consented to everything all night and then changed her mind - and it's that that matters.

Decomposing because you quite deliberately quoted me out of context!

I've said several times about educating both sexes but the fact is most sexual offence perpetrators ARE male and it is NOT the responsibility of victims to control their behaviour, it's not even possible! The people best placed to properly guide boys and men so that they don't become perpetrators are the people raising them and influencing them on a regular basis.

"That's why all children - boys and girls - need to be properly taught enthusiastic & true consent"

"You did not mention anything about girls in that post"

Ahem:
"Parents of girls have mostly been doing as much as they can for MILLENIA - why aren't parents of boys expected to take responsibility for how they're raising them wrt this issue?" - said in the very same post you quoted me from! But you selectively quoted to make what I said appear a certain way.

It's disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Tootruetobegood excellent post at 1354

"I do agree we need to educate about consent however I think the majority of rapists know full well what consent is and act against it." I don't think it's the majority I think it's probably an even split. Those that really don't give a shit about consent and those that don't really understand consent and particularly coercion =/= consent etc neither are any less rapists but unfortunately I think we have slightly more hope of changing the latters mindset than the formers.

"Even more common I believe is rape within established relationships - husbands or boyfriends" I agree there's a very worrying number of threads by women who's partners have penetrated them while they were sleeping, a couple most weeks!

Helena reply sent, I'm having a little trouble with pms at moment

I agree that a lot of men claiming not to understand consent are being disingenuous

Parents of girls have mostly been doing as much as they can for MILLENIA - why aren't parents of boys expected to take responsibility for how they're raising them wrt this issue?" - said in the very same post you quoted me from! But you selectively quoted to make what I said appear a certain way.

How is that referring to consent? And sorry, but your posts are just too long to quote in their entirety.

The part that I quoted was very specifically about boys and consent. If you meant boys and girls then why not say so?

I have said boys and girls in AT LEAST one post I think actually a few and not just on this thread either.

My posts being long don't mean you can't honestly acknowledge what I ACTUALLY said rather than misrepresenting what I said

graphista

I think you’ll find that other people are reading your posts and understanding them

If other posters are struggling it’s probably best to leave it

Decomposing Graphista did say boys and girls.