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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be angry about the Oritse Williams rape case?

678 replies

prettyinpink23x · 28/05/2019 14:48

He's been found not guilty today by a Jury.

So many people on twitter are saying 'name and shame the woman, she's lied' 'she deserves a prison sentence'. This is infuriating! Do these people not realise that 'not guilty' does not equate with innocent and it doesn't mean she's lied?

Is it unreasonable for me to be angry about this?

OP posts:
Dorsetdays · 30/05/2019 14:28

@onefootinthegrave. Just to clarify as you seem to be misreading my posts, deliberately or otherwise...

I never said most rapes weren’t by someone the victim knows or that “over half” were dropped by the victim. I said 40% of reported rapes weren’t prosecuted because the victim did not want to pursue action.

I also said that more needs to be done to support victims of rape as clearly some of those may have dropped action due to pressure from police etc re lack of evidence or for other reasons (some of which are discussed in the link).

BeckyAnnLeeman · 30/05/2019 14:32

@Dorsetdays, I'm sure you rolled your eyes at someone else providing a link to an Independent article?

'I’d rather rely on actual stats from the CPS etc than media interpretation...🙄'

Dorsetdays · 30/05/2019 14:35

@beckyannleeman. Depends if we’re talking Daily Fail or not....

As I said the full stats are available from CPS which I’m sure you can access if you’re interested and want to read from source rather than the report quoted in The Independant.

BeckyAnnLeeman · 30/05/2019 14:37

Doresetdays, the previous poster linked to an Independent article, same as you. Just struck me as strange that you'd chide someone for doing something and then do that exact same thing yourself.

Hey ho.

Dorsetdays · 30/05/2019 15:02

Becky. That was in response to a post about 95+% of men being guilty of rape which was subsequently clarified as meaning something wholly different.

jaseyraex · 30/05/2019 15:23

Apologies I've only read about 10 pages of the thread but I wanted to share my experience.

I was raped by a man I met on a night out when I was 19. I agreed to go for further drinks with him. He said his hotel bar did cheap drinks, I declined and we went to another bar. Upon leaving that bar I was aware that I'd had too much to drink, he said he'd take me back to my hotel and we got in a taxi. I remember almost nothing after that until I woke up on a travelodge hotel bed and the sheets were covered in blood. I stayed there and cried until a maid came in. I told her what I thought had happened and she got hotel staff for me. They helped me call the police etc. I was on CCTV with this man physically holding me up. The receptionist remembered commenting that I looked like I needed to sleep, the man said he was getting the room so I could sleep it off as he didn't know what hotel I was originally booked in. (He did, I met him in a pub next door to my hotel.) He let me go at reception to take the room key and I fell on the floor. He carried me to the hotel room. Then nothing until he left the hotel at 7.24am a few hours later. It was around 8 when I woke up. I was bruised and sore and bleeding and terrified. This man was tracked down and it went to court where he was found not guilty. Because I couldn't remember consenting, but he definitely knew I had, and the bleeding was because of rough sex. Evidence of me consenting to rough sex was backed up by searches of hardcore porn on my phone. As if that's in any way the same thing. I lost friends over this, because I "lied".

I've been assaulted since then and never reported it. There was no point. If clear as day CCTV of me not even being able to stand up on my own wasn't enough evidence to say I couldn't consent clearly then there sure as shit was no point reporting something I had little evidence of.

IF this woman isn't lying, and in my opinion I think its terribly unlikely that she is lying, then this could happen to her again and she will keep it to herself. As so many women do. Because we know the likelihood of achieving any good outcome is miniscule. Something needs to change and I wish I had the answers on how to change rape cases. It seems impossible.

Deathgrip · 30/05/2019 16:25

This man was tracked down and it went to court where he was found not guilty. Because I couldn't remember consenting, but he definitely knew I had, and the bleeding was because of rough sex. Evidence of me consenting to rough sex was backed up by searches of hardcore porn on my phone. As if that's in any way the same thing. I lost friends over this, because I "lied"

I’m so sorry, and so angry about how many times I’ve heard similar stories. I’m so angry at how misogynistic the current system is. I hope you’re okay, and thank you for trying to stop him.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 30/05/2019 16:27

jasey

Flowers

And for anyone else who has suffered...

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 30/05/2019 16:38

He's been found not guilty today by a Jury.

So many people on twitter are saying 'name and shame the woman, she's lied' 'she deserves a prison sentence'. This is infuriating! Do these people not realise that 'not guilty' does not equate with innocent and it doesn't mean she's lied?

Is it unreasonable for me to be angry about this?

You are absolutely not being unreasonable. I argued exactly the same thing in a similar case involving a footballer who played for my team. The exclusively male audience that I was debating with absolutely slated me. But .... I stood firm in my view.

There seems to be a widespread inability amongst humankind to comprehend that being found 'not guilty' does not automatically mean that the accused was innocent. Quite why that's so hard to grasp, I don't really see Blush

prettyinpink23x · 30/05/2019 16:38

Jaseyraex

Our stories are very similar. Mine fell down because I couldn't remember if I consented even though I was heavily injured and very drunk. I hope you are doing okay, I rarely hear from other victims.

OP posts:
prettyinpink23x · 30/05/2019 16:40

@NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace

Thankyou I agree completely! I have given up arguing it some people just won’t listen.

OP posts:
prettyinpink23x · 30/05/2019 16:41

Jasey

I also lost my best friend who deserted me on that night out too. But i am doing much better without that friendship.

OP posts:
Graphista · 30/05/2019 19:54

"We should be building on the pre-existing anti rape grassroots movement, not ignoring the very real problems that are allowing thousands of (mainly) women, girls and boys to be raped and abused every year while their attackers never see the inside of a courtroom." Totally agree

"when the public and juries see that rape is taken seriously by those prosecuting it, maybe attitudes will change." Again very much agree.

But as I said, prevention has got to be better than dealing with the aftermath by which point lives are ruined? That's why all children - boys and girls - need to be properly taught enthusiastic & true consent, respect for all, and not to be buying into misogynistic nonsense about dress, flirtatious behaviour, promiscuity etc = "she was asking for it"

Parents of boys (and I know there's at least 2 posters on this thread have bucked this trend) often come on these threads to complain about "all boys and men being painted as rapists" and blaming victims of sexual assault for this!

When the real blame lies primarily with the perpetrators and to a lesser but important extent the authorities & wider society who perpetuate the myth that the fault for rape happening lies with victims!

This does not occur in the same way or to the same extent with other crimes (with the possible exception of murder within the context of dv including "rough sex gone wrong" bollocks) and it very rarely applies to crimes committed against men and boys outwith those with a sexual element.

Sundowners it's utterly disgusting that after knowing the evidence they're still supporting him. I can understand - to a degree - not wanting to believe such a thing of a friend/colleague, I don't understand knowing that evidence and still thinking he's remotely a stand up guy.

Lizzie48 jaseyraex Thanks and other victims I'm so sorry you've been through this.

I agree the processes for reporting and recording & presenting evidence from victims does need to be overhauled. There are several ways in which it could be made less stressful/easier which we seem very slow/reluctant to implement/use here in the uk.

"I think that's because so many of us have been raped and assaulted and don't want to face up to it" that's one reason. Another reason is because we know how hard it is to get a prosecution let alone a conviction. I discussed with police my own case and basically they said as it was historical and It was literally just my word against his that it would be unlikely to reach even prosecution stage. It's also difficult when the perpetrator is a family member and even other family members don't believe you! So why would someone who doesn't know you? I'm fortunate I have some family members who do believe me but there's a lot of pressure not to "cause trouble" and "break up the family", plus our feelings for the perpetrator can be very complex too.

DorsetDays ok thanks for the link. I'd be interested to know why victims did not support action. I have a horrible feeling it's most likely because they feel unsupported themselves, plus also issues like feeling like the investigations and prosecution are being handled incompetently and as victims are increasingly feeling like they're being treated like perpetrators rather than victims - something that article alludes to

"victims are dropping complaints after being asked to give police their mobile phones for examination, or allow blanket access to health records and other personal information."

Victims lives in terms of information unrelated to the rape reported are being pulled apart and used against them.

"Sarah* said she was told that if she refused, the case could not go ahead. “It made me very angry, it made me feel like I was the one on trial and they were trying to seek out ways it was my fault,” she added." This is unacceptable

Glad to see that how such cases are handled will be reviewed not sure how confident I feel that this will be done thoroughly or appropriately.

Graphista · 30/05/2019 19:57

Thank you
Onefootinthegrave
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer
SagradaFamiliar
AravisQueenofArchenland

It's a long response because there was a lot to address.

I'm absolutely not exaggerating in what I say of my female family and friends experiences of harassment and assault and I don't think that's at all unusual.

I've supported a few in the immediate aftermath and the rest I know from a combination of them disclosing upon hearing my story, news stories like the one discussed here or metoo.

How many convictions have been achieved from this sample set? 4!

Yep 4 out of over 200 MINIMUM.

By calling me a liar you are denying these women and girls their experience.

"Graphista those who refer to your posts as 'epic/long/rambly/ rants' can't really argue with anything you've said so they just make a snide comment instead." I suspect you're right.

DorsetDays in exactly what way do my posts not make sense? Not believing me doesn't mean they don't make sense. absolutely not "BS" at all - if you're gonna call me a liar you need good reason to do so!

"I am not arguing with anybody who thinks the best way to engage with others is to be so long-winded. It doesn’t bode well for the discussion." Can you not cope with reading anything longer than a DM article? Frankly that sounds more like "can't argue" than "won't argue"

"I suppose it didn't occur to the PP(s) who spent all day yesterday lecturing and arguing that you may have been busy and didn't have the time to address each poster live." I'm disabled and suffer from serious mh issues (ocd, depression, anxiety and agoraphobia partly as a result of csa) I'm on a lot of meds some of which knock me out and it means my days are often "upside down" which they are currently. So I'm awake at night and crashed in the day (pain tends to be worse in the day and painkillers knock me sideways) I don't see why my health issues should prevent me from participating in mn in a way that is suited to my needs.

There's also no rules on when we post and how much we write to my knowledge.

Nobody has to engage with me but neither can they tell me not to post or address their posts.

How on EARTH was I rude?!

prettyinpink23x · 30/05/2019 20:00

@Graphista

Not sure why you've excluded me from that list. I have also supported you in this thread and have been a victim myself.....

OP posts:
Graphista · 30/05/2019 20:02

Very sorry op no offence intended there.

I do of course thank you for your support and I'm so sorry for all you've been through.

I'm very impressed with how you've come across throughout the thread you seem a strong, caring and thoughtful woman.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 30/05/2019 20:03

And brave as well pretty

prettyinpink23x · 30/05/2019 20:04

@Graphista

No worries at all I was just worried you hadn't seen my support! Thankyou as do you and you should be able to express yourself however you want to.

OP posts:
prettyinpink23x · 30/05/2019 20:04

Thankyou @Rufusthebewilderedreindeer that's very kind of you to say.

OP posts:
onefootinthegrave · 31/05/2019 11:19

graphista you absolutely weren't rude, and certainly not talking BS.

prettyinpink I'm sorry I've been really rude in that I haven't even answered your question - no YANBU to be angry with the hatred on twitter for the woman in this case - people's ignorance is astounding, to assume she lied because he was acquitted! I'm sorry for what you, graphista and others on this thread have gone through. I've been there myself and came pretty close to the edge. I'm glad I didn't jump off it, because life is much better now.

Dorsetdays thanks for sending the link - I am shocked at those figures, have never seen them before. I do remember a HMIC report about rape/DV from about 2014/2015 where many women gave evidence to say that when they dropped out of a prosecution it was because they didn't feel supported by the police, or were advised to. When I reported my ex partner, I did my ABE and when it was finished the DC said I could chose to not to take it any further right then, she would write me out a retraction that said I didn't lie in my ABE but I didn't want to take it any further and all I'd have to do was sign it. Seriously. I refused, but I can imagine a lot of women who have just been raped and have had an awful medical examination, been through the ABE would think 'this is awful, I can't go any further' and sign it. When I complained to the IPCC (because my case was fucked up like you wouldn't imagine - too long and outing) they said it was my word against hers and they would find it hard to believe the OIC would advise me to retract before he had even been interviewed. Well, she did. I'm not a liar. This was the same DC that wouldn't arrest him for breaking his bail conditions, but of course that was denied as well. I could go on. I've spoken anonymously in the media a lot about what happenned to me and now fight for change within the system because people have this idea that the police are like you see on the TV, will pursue every line of inquiry to find evidence, when in reality a lot of the time they can be like the Keystone Cops.

Sorry, I'm rambling now. Also Dorestdays I wasn't deliberatly misreading your post, that was how it came across to me.

And this has brought up a whole lot of emotion, the whole thing again of not being believed. For years I was known as the 'bitter ex who lied out of spite' when I was trying to survive an abusive relationship where so many people believed him. It was so bad that I nearly threw the towel in on life. But now I'm OK and I think the best thing I should do is stay away from these threads because they bring it all right back up again!

prettyinpink23x · 31/05/2019 13:08

@onefootinthegrave

I am very sorry this thread has brought up those feelings again. I hope you are doing okay.

OP posts:
onefootinthegrave · 31/05/2019 14:54

pretty thanks - I'm glad in a way you started it, because it's always good to know what we're up against and what attitudes people still have that need changing. The problem is I get so angry I can't articulate what I really want to say. Have a good weekend Flowers

DecomposingComposers · 31/05/2019 17:24

And again - you barely pay lip service to teaching your children consent, as another mother of a son I'm genuinely interested to know exactly how stringent you are/plan to be in educating your son so that they don't become a man who coerces, abuses or rapes.

All rapists have parents - it may be very uncomfortable for parents of boys to think about but they do have a responsibility to ensure their sons really understand consent, preferably enthusiastic consent, coercion, pressure etc

Why is it only boys and men who need to be educated about and understand consent?

Why shouldn't girls be taught about how to give, and obtain, consent?

And enthusiastic consent - what constitutes it, when is it obtained and how would it be proved?

Graphista · 31/05/2019 23:14

Decomposing you have deliberately misquoted and misrepresented me!

At NO POINT have I said girls and women don't need to be taught about consent, coercion and abuse AT ALL.

What I have ASKED is if/how boys and men are ALSO being thoroughly taught this - because they're the vast majority of perpetrators of such crimes.

Rapists don't just magically become rapists, something has gone wrong in how they were raised and socialised and that HAS to be addressed.

For far too long responsibility for rape and sexual abuse has been lain at VICTIMS doors - something that really doesn't happen with the majority of other crimes.

The responsibility belongs with the perpetrators and frankly with those raising/guiding boys and men

this is not rocket science but is apparently unpalatable and offensive to many who are actually in a position to influence boys and young men.

Rainbowknickers · 31/05/2019 23:36

My brother was arrested on a rape charge he was innocent (she lied and admitted it) it ruined his life

I was raped and he got off with it
I hope to god he can’t sue me it’s bad enough being hauled into court called every name under the sun my good name ripped apart and being forced to stand 10 feet away from him in and out of the court room
Nobody knows if he’s innocent or not-only two people know the truth
But I agree-rape is legal

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