Who was BU? Manager or Colleague - Time And Pay

[Notss]

Hi all,

I’d welcome thoughts on an issue that happened in the office last week; as I can see both sides and wanted others thoughts:

We’ve just gotten a new manager. Before he joined, the unwritten policy was that as long as you didn’t take the P you could leave the occasional half hour early for appointments, childcare whatever as long as your work wasn’t behind and you would made it up at some point when it was needed.

The new manger however isn’t keen on this; last week a colleague asked if she could leave half an hour early for an appointment. The manger asked her to email him with a written request. She was then allowed to leave half an hour early but was docked half an hours pay. (We’re salaried)

Yesterday, we were in a staff meeting lead by this manager. It got to got to the end of our directed hours; and we were about two thirds through the agenda. My colleague stood up, said see you tomorrow and walked out. She said this morning it was in response to being docked pay — if that’s the way the manger wants to play it, she isn’t working a second beyond her contract hours.

What are people’s thoughts?
Thanks!

I'm with your colleague. I think we as a country will except horrific work conditions as people are afraid to rock the boat or be seen as a problem.

Well some of the responses here show why we have such poor conditions. People willing to roll over and be trampled over for the privilege of looking like “a team player” or because they think it’s good for their career.

Walk out of any job and they’ll replace you in a week and never think of you again. If you dropped dead at your desk they’d have your stuff in a box in the bin by the end of the day and someone else in your seat before it was cold. Always bear that in mind when you’re tempted to be a pushover in a job. If you don’t value yourself and your time nobody else is going to do it for you.

My last manager bullied me and part of this was demanding I come in half an hour early ‘to get prepared for the day’ wtaf? It didn’t really work for me and he brought it up again and I said ‘I can’t actually do that, I will speak to her to hear their thoughts on an effective change to my contract and asking me to do 2.5 hours unpaid a week. He practically crawled up his own arse he backed down so fast. One of the benefits of working for a major company was how strictly to the letter HR was.

Colleague is spot on. Your manager was being very unreasonable.

I don’t know what the manager said to her; but she announced her resignation today

Ah

I'm another who believes she was right in principle, especially as the time wasn't paid, but that she was unprofessional in just walking out. Much better to have said she looked forward to finishing up the next day, then discussed any grievance properly at a later time

Sounds like the manager may have thought so too ...

I think it’s very myopic of the manager. Far better to allow reasonable flexibility and autonomy and reap double that back in goodwill.

Some people are brilliant at there job but shit at being managers ! Good for your colleague, hope she's got somewhere else to go.

oh I think she was right to walk out, though now I suspect she did it knowing full well she'd resign the next day.

there was no other way to do it really - otherwise it would seem like it was open for negotiation or something.

The manager or colleague resigned!?

Personally I'd give that colleague a high five...... One of those "I wished i was a fly on the wall" moments!

I'm a manager and am #teamcolleague all the way.

But I worked my way up through the ranks and IME, managers who have done this tend to appreciate the give and take. My team are bloody brilliant at what they do and make my life infinitely easier as a manager because they are good. If they need a late start, early finish, longer lunch or whatever, then I couldn't give a shit, as long as the work is getting done and everyone's happy. I take flexibility when I need it, so I'd be a bloody hypocrite if I denied my team the same benefits.

My new boss tried this.

I asked to come in 30 mins late for an appointment.
He said to make log if it so I can work it back later. He wanted me to log every every early finish/late start/ling lunch whatever.
So presumably he wanted a balance against any free overtime I had dine. So hours worked out.
I emailed him back asking very politely about what he wanted logged. And how far back should I go (I'd been there 7 years)
He said from now on
I logged every time I was approached in my lunch break to just do X, or stayed 25mins to finish Y.
In about 4 weeks I had 'accrued' 8 hours. So e-mailed him the spreadsheet and showed him asking for a day off in lieu.

He stopped making me log after that and is happy for me to manage it myself!

I’m manage staff in two locations and I 100% agree with your colleague. These things are two-way streets.

the unwritten policy was that as long as you didn’t take the P you could leave the occasional half hour early for appointments, childcare whatever as long as your work wasn’t behind and you would made it up at some point when it was needed
People ALWAYS take the piss and abuse privileges like this - the fact that you all think you're entitled to do this off your own back says it all.
This kind of thing generates extra work/mental load for the manager - did your previous manager keep a record of time owed and was it worked back within a set time period?
'when needed' tells me that some of you were getting away with not always giving that time back.
The manager would have to keep log of everyone's early finishes and also then chase them up to ensure they made the time back -especially when it was needed and I can just imagine some of excuses that people would come up with if they didn't want/like the timing of it.
Your new manager obviously didn't want that hassle and it was within their remit to revoke this unwritten policy they inherited.
The docking of pay for time not worked, whilst shit, is understandable - why should you get paid for time not worked and no proof of you making that time up within the pay period (regardless of how busy/quiet business is)?

My colleague stood up, said see you tomorrow and walked out. She said this morning it was in response to being docked pay — if that’s the way the manger wants to play it, she isn’t working a second beyond her contract hours
Well she already showed her bosses that she wasn't working her contracted hours by choosing to leave early....she also showed that she was not willing to even accrue overtime in order to leave early.
She's basically told her bosses that her time is more valuable than the company's time.
She not only embarrassed herself, her colleagues and manager - she also proved to them why it was a good idea to revoke the unwritten policy - people take the piss.
If she'd bothered to engage her brain before behaving in such an immature and unprofessional manner - all of you could have had a good case to argue for 'flexible' working or using accrued overtime for an early finish...and that would have been easier for your manager to keep track of too.
SHE could have used that 'overtime' to finish early on another day....that way nobody loses working time/money.
Instead she chose to behave like a spoilt brat.
whereas before you may have had a chance of getting it reinstated, thanks to your colleague you now have zero chance.

I don’t know what the manager said to her; but she announced her resignation today. Read into that what you will
Probably reminded her of the contract she signed when she took the job.....and who is in charge of managing the team.....
It's her loss anyway - the company will easily find someone to replace her vacant post.

she was an idiot if she walked out of the meeting so abruptly. If she keeps up this game, she'll be the one who loses out.

Why? You can't be sacked for working the hours you are paid for.

I've done exactly what this person did many times. Non issue.

I think your colleague is right though she might have shot herself in the foot with the way she went about making this point. I've never heard of salaried staff being docked pay as a starting point for such a small amount of time, rather than being asked to make up the time

Flexibility works both ways

Does your work have any sort of official policy on flexible working? Mine does and its pretty much as you described in your opening paragraph - as long as it doesn't impact on the business (eg letting down a customer or your colleagues having to pick up some difficult work) you can have flexibility for personal appointments, subject to your managers discretion (but they would have to have a pretty good reason to decline it).

Oh and this flexibility doesn't result in piss taking-my colleagues and myself generally all work past our official hours, as its busy and we want to get the work done!

People ALWAYS take the piss and abuse privileges like this - the fact that you all think you're entitled to do this off your own back says it all.

Bollocks. SOME people may well take the piss. Those people quickly find that they don't get the flexibility; if they don't want the give, then they don't get the take. I don't spend my time finicking about whether someone owes 10 minutes or not. Are they taking the piss? No. Is the work done? Yes. Is it good quality? Yes. Is everyone generally happy? Yes. That's as much as I'm concerned with.

You get better work and more loyalty and longevity from people when you treat them like trustworthy adults and acknowledge that they - like you - have lives which may require some flexibility from time to time. I can't help thinking that much of our current climate crisis and air quality issues could be resolved by employers being more flexible and trusting employees to work remotely, rather than insisting on expensive and pointless presenteeism.

The charity I worked for got a new CEO he has managed to get rid of all the top people which filtered down to them getting rid of staff below them, and so on, outsourced work, only the cleaners are safe at the moment. Company policy can change from board level down, this manager may be only part of the winds of change.

She might have resigned but honestly...

you guys should take a book out of the lech walesa book of workplace management and go solidarnosc on the new manager.

The reality is workplaces need to get used to flex hours your new manager is taking away a benefit that helped you and enabled you to be better workers.

*you guys should take a lesson

Saving spaces...

I assume you are the MD? Otherwise I’d say your senior management opportunities are limited.

I’ve worked for big and little companies and run my own. The only successful ones employed good people and did give and take. Piss takers were managed out (and without issue as no one wants to cover for them).

I've done it before, many times. The manager has got to give to receive.

Got to agree, managers made a cock up. They can’t have it both ways and it’s defo going to put people’s backs up.
They will learn and I’d expect co workers to back their colleague on this.

With your colleague. It's totally normal in salaried jobs to leave early here and there. The time gets made up. Short sighted crap manager. He'll soon learn (hopefully)!

I'm totally in favour of being a team player but it has to work both ways. If half an hour of my time is so valuable you're going to dock my pay then you can pay me overtime for the half an hour I stay longer.

If you want to retain good staff you have to create a good working atmosphere. By all means have high standards but repay the commitment by being flexible.