To want all kids to have a proper break time in school?

[SugarPlumLairy2]

AIBU to think my dd should have sufficient time during lunch to actually eat her lunch?

My DD has additional needs and goes to a mainstream school. She has an EHCP in which she MUST have movements breaksthroughout the day. Usually the school useplay time/lunch for these breaks.

So I am fed up of her coming out of school, hungry, on verge of meltdown, anxious etc. Because there wasn’t time to have a movement break AND lunch. Other parents (SENS and Mainstream) have complained of the same, kids being held back because someone is messing about so WHOLE class has to wait. They miss break in the morning , Miss part or all of lunch break as punishment/to complete class work /practice lining up neatly etc. No afternoon break routinely scheduled . I’m fed up.
So many parents complaining of same thing too. Those breaks are really important for the kids to let off steam and rest before afternoon classes. And then when they are wired etc in the afternoon the teachers have to deal with the fallout. How is this helping anyone?

So this petition hit my Facebook and I have signed it. AIBU to ask you all to have a look and sign/share too? Please.

Our kids are under so much pressure in school, at least let them have a decent lunch.

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/legislate-for-90-minutes-playtime-in-a-school-day-and-make-removal-of-it-illegal?source=facebook-share-button&time=1558197250

Why do people perceive breaks as expensive? Most schools have near identical opening times, and staff in the main are paid a salary, not by the hour. Lessons are more expensive, as they require teaching staff in greater ratios. Breaks are a mix of SLT and lower paid (far lower) staff in high ratios. In most schools the same staff offer some break supervision as well as lesson support (at primary in particular). Length of break has little impact on paying cooks/ dinner hall staff as clean up and prep is the bulk of the work.
Unless the school is in the very unusual position of being a PFI school and renting by the hour it won’t make much difference when it’s open. These schools sending kids home early have staff on site, they just have all their non-contact time in that afternoon to avoid paying cover teachers for PPA time.
Breaks are larger cheaper, it’s why many schools are getting sports coaches in. A half day of sport while teachers have non-contact time is way cheaper than paying qualified teachers to cover. A sports coach in London is around £90 per day, and agency staff person is about £170 and a member of staff actually employed attracts pension costs.

Break times being short is a behaviour policy usually. Or in some schools because playground space has been built on so break times are staggered.

Breaks are a mix of SLT and lower paid (far lower) staff in high ratios.

Lunch time is covered by mid day assistants (certainly in the schools that I know) which is an additional expense.

The schools where I know have shortened lunch time have done it as a re structure of the school day and week. So by reducing lunch time they can then shorten the school day or have a half day on Friday. They then give staff PPA time on Friday afternoon meaning they don't need to provide cover for lessons, again saving money.

Why do people perceive breaks as expensive? Most schools have near identical opening times, and staff in the main are paid a salary, not by the hour.

Exactly that reason. If you have a 1h 10 minute lunch, you are paying the TAs/middays for that time. If you have a 45 minute lunch, you can have the TAs/middays gone by 12.45 saving 25 minutes of their pay every day and just have the teachers start the afternoon session at 12.45 at no extra pay as they are salaried.

It’s exactly what happened at my last school. The TAs were mornings only anyway and were contracted 8.45-1.10 previously, but when the changes were made, their hours became 9-12.45.

Just coming back to this as I forgot to reply earlier, someone said kids don’t like longer breaks, makes them anxious, another said they don’t like it as not allowed to have phones. I absolutely believe this is the case for many kids.. but...These are all social skills issues.

These are skills they NEED as adults, and if we ignore their anxiety at not being able to manage their own time/relationships we’re setting them up to fail as adults. This is what nurtures the seeds of poor mental health.

Schools are clearly overwhelmed, but let’s remember the point of schools is to prepare our kids for the future.

When we talk of school issues I hear lots of “teachers are underpaid, overworked, can’t afford supplies, we need new equipment, we need shorter days, we need more staff” etc. These are ALL important and valid discussions. They get well deserved support. They are all adult centric though.

This is about what do kids need? And apparently they need to be quiet, do as they are told, bottle it up and work hard? Not ok.

Our schools are having to deal with more mental health and behavioural issues, issues that will go on to stress our NHS. Issues that add extra work for a teacher in the long run. It’s shown that movement breaks, socialising, being able to kick a ball about, join in team games etc has a HUGELY beneficial effect on kids and yet we dismiss it outright because it might....MIGHT .....adversely affect adults in the first instance. Schools are about benefits for kids first and foremost, perhaps if we focused on that other issues may improve.

You seem to have quite a romanticised view of schools and playtime OP. It reads like an Enid Blyton story, with lashings of ginger beer.

Bullying and isolating children is very common in the playground. Lots of children aren't happy playing out because they are bullied, left out, have no one to paly with. Lunch time particularly can be a flash point for trouble. Who do you propose organising the team games? Maybe you could go in and organise and supervise? (And break up the inevitable fights, ensure that the children who are always left out "cos they're rubbish at football" are included)?

And the issues raised by staff aren't ignoring children. Children will of course benefit from having books, equipment and more staff.

How is needing more funding, staff, equipment adult-centric?

I’m a bit annoyed by your assertion that your DC needs movement breaks and this is non-negotiable but an autistic student who can’t cope with lengthy unstructured time needs to learn social skills to get over it.

Bless , those were lovely books weren’t they😊

I actually was the chair of our PTA for several years, organising many fundraisers and events (and serving lashings of Ribena as ginger beer wasnt budget friendly), we had brief forays into play time buddies, organised games and even timetabled who could have the one football pitch to avoid arguments. (Until lunches got shortened and we were stood down as not enough time for these things etc). I read with KS1 and KS2 on a regular basis and provided volunteer supervision on school trips. Be the change you want to see I say. 😊

It’s nice you and I can agree on some solutions 👍

I would imagine that more money would be better at targeted support for DC who need it (maybe extra staff for pastoral care - one of the areas currently being cut) rather than just giving every child more breaks, regardless of whether they want them or require them.

My DD is autistic. She also has several other diagnosis.
Her EHCP clearly states she needs movements breaks to help her manage her condition. These are important to her condition. When break times are cut back it impacts her right to prescribed movement breaks which impacts her health and has a knock on effect.

She also needs the chance to develop social skills regardless of her diagnosis to assist in her development.

Again... This is NOT about JUST my DC. I can ensure she gets her breaks. What about other kids? 85% who say they don’t get enough time?

I know schools were children can choose to read in the library or play board games etc during lunch. I’m not saying one size fits all. I’m saying a slightly bigger size would fit more kids more comfortably.

But it is about your child OP.

She has an EHCP so her movement breaks should be facilitated.

You can't extrapolate her needs to be the needs of every other child.

As for letting children in the library, staying in to play games - that has to be supervised. So now you need mid days to supervise outside plus one per room inside. How is that funded?

And yes, in an ideal world I agree. Children should be supported to play and enjoy their long breaks. But sadly that comes at a cost and in this climate cuts have to be made. Schools are trying to balance everything but in my experience the days of cutting back on luxuries are long gone and now they are cutting back on essentials.

Post a petition demanding more money for education - that's what is needed. Not demanding longer lunch breaks. That's just a symptom of a much bigger problem.

As an adult I am thankfully not forced to go out and “have fun” with 100s of other people on a daily basis thankfully so I’m not sure that in the grand scale of things your average playtime is that much of a learning chance for adult life! Generally learning of that level will come from much more focused activities.

If a school is relying on breaks for implementing movement breaks then that is the failing of the school not the overall system. Ds hasn’t set foot on the school playground at playtime for two years yet still gets multiple movement breaks a day

the report is not about MY dd’s needs. It explains how breaks affect children, how necessary they are and provides proof to that end.

My personal experience did not drive the report, but certainly helps me understand its findings.

There are many issues that need attention. Asking for attention on one subject does not mean the others are less important. It would be ridiculous to say “I can’t support your need for school funding because there are starving children in Africa”.

‘an autistic student who can’t cope with lengthy unstructured time needs to learn social skills to get over it.’

Ffs, no one would be diagnosed as autistic if they could be taught to just get over it in early primary school. 🙄

Yes OP, but the issue isn't break times being cut the issue is lack of funding in schools which leads to break times being cut, amongst other things.

If your petition succeeds and they re instate hour long lunches you will just be back petitioning for something else - no tas, no books, half days on Fridays, no paper for the kids to write on, school closed because boiler has broken and they can't afford repairs, collapsed classes so they can get rid of a teacher.

‘an autistic student who can’t cope with lengthy unstructured time needs to learn social skills to get over it

I can’t work out if this is directed at me or not. No matter, let’s clarify. there are varying degrees of autism.. hence spectrum. My DD attends social skills classes.

You can’t “cure” autism by teaching them to get over it.

You CAN teach understanding, some coping skills and there is no reason for an autistic child to not be given those opportunities where appropriate.

If this petition got to point of being discussed in parliament it would raise the issue, that’s all. It’s not a bad thing to do. We can discuss many issues without negating the importance of others.

it is unlikely to be signed off first hand with schools around the country crashing into bankruptcy and gangs of kids running feral, so we can all calm down.

I have kids with ADHD and autism but no EHCP and they do not get movement breaks. A decent play time length is vital for them. One of older ones is at secondary school and says the 35 minute lunch break often means they don’t get time to eat what they’ve bought in the canteen because the queues are horrendous

Post a petition demanding more money for education - that's what is needed. Not demanding longer lunch breaks. That's just a symptom of a much bigger problem.

This.

I received an email yesterday about 4 workshops to do with mental health from my dc primary school. That’s just one school. I have dc at 3 other schools who are also holding similar workshops and these happen throughout the year. How parents can help their children workshops. Well parents can’t do anything about the stress teachers put the kids under for sats, gcse’s, homework but we can try to get them decent break times

People seem to be so defeatist about education right now.
The attitude of we may as well accept stress/ poor mental health due to budgets. Instead of wanting more. The best primary schools here are still doing fine, they’ve started private nurseries or wrap round care to boost cash flow for example, re-structured staff effectively, come up with well-led and creative solutions such as use of sports coaches. One has, instead of sending kids home, started enrichment afternoon where outside providers offer cooking/ dance etc during PPA (far cheaper but positive). Others simply are effective applying for EHCP funding, grants etc. Another small school here has three non-teaching SLT on the other hand, and is always banging the ‘we cant’ drum.
I’m not saying it’s easy by a long shot, but it’s quite reasonable to still want an education and demand more.
We have in this area high schools with near identical intakes being run in wildly different ways, the extreme end has near zero breaks, police presence often, behaviour is wild and a really poor range of GCSE options. Half a mile away, no more deprived or in a worse area other schools are largely operating as normal high schools still. A few ups and downs as you’d expect in east London but you’d send your child there.
It’s not budget that is dividing them, it’s quality leadership. It isn’t as it was ten years ago, but it doesn’t mean school leaders can just sit and not address the issue. Pumping more money into some of these schools wouldn’t solve issues, it could just mean a higher paid CEO, furniture, more poor deals in ICT equipment or playground murals.
You can address poor leadership and children’s mental health as a separate issue from funding.

Well said Forkit. I’ve asked the kids primary school why they can’t do a big play time after school for all kids and if they need too, ask for a minimum donation. They are spending £40k on a tree house but when will the kids get to use it!

I agree about leadership I’ve looked at moving schools for my kids as I had initially thought all playtimes and behaviour policies were the same but reading on individual schools websites they can be widely different and some really good ones and equally poor.

I do often think how schools have money for things that suit them. At the same time as spending £40k on a treehouse (which I would totally support if the kids were going to get time to use it), they are asking for parental donations as they’ve run out of paper and Pritt sticks.

The teacher strikes in the ‘80’s meant I was sent home for lunch because they wanted their lunchtime hour protected and yet incredibly children aren’t getting their lunch hour nearly 40 years later

If you asked my DC if they'd like more breaks then they would say yes. If they were told it was a choice between more breaks or a longer school day or no extra curricular, then they would tell you that actually they were quiite happy with the breaks they had and would rather socialise out of school.

^^ This.

15 minutes got added onto school day at our primary school – so they could do daily mile.

It’s surprising how much of a pain that’s been for us – some swim slots are out now we just can’t do them – after school meeting start 15 minutes later which means early start club days I can’t do them or child misses meetings – can’t do after school dental or GP appointment have to get primary child out early – because by time I’ve added travel time on too few appointments left to get one or they’re closed.

DC at secondary have 30 min lunch break – which we worried about but they like it. DH and I at separate secondary schools got an entire hour and we both hated it. They do stagger breaks and lunches so there are two timetables with different break and lunch times which must be a nightmare for teacher breaks and timetabling but means they do have enough time. They finish at 3 pm and get back just after and it’s great they have plenty of time to do things and for them to get out and about with their friends.

I think you have problems with your school OP – several – and I think you’re assuming because your child needs this all children do and I think that’s wrong.

ForkIt, thank you, that was beautifully explained.

Whilst I agree schools don’t get the support and funding they deserve it is painfully clear that not all schools are equal in delivering an education.

Doogleblue, we’re in a similar position with primary school spending money on unneccesaries. .

I was in charge of their fundraisers for ages. That’s a lot of my time given for free to raise money for them. I can give so many examples where cash was wasted. Thousands of pounds. We would always review costs/purchases, always check the item would add value to school. They sat there and gave amazing talks on their plans for the equipment they wanted us to buy. So many times it was lies. It makes me sick to think of the waste.

Volunteers are free staff. They alienated so many parents.
I used to go in, at their request, to read with kids, help with spellings etc. I’d turn up on time and they’d say oh we haven’t got the kids ready, oh can you give us a minute, oh we dont know which lists you should be working from. Many a time I’d sit there for an hour but might only have ONE child sent out. I used to volunteer and do their photocopying, book covering etc. Anything to help. It was always badly organised.

And in amongst this chaos, you can bet the kids got antsy. And lost playtime because of it. Which made afternoons an utter nightmare.

I currently pay a termly donation towards art, sports and other subjects that need equipment for a lesson. I’m all in for extra funding.

So if anyone wants to start a petition on More Funds For School. Go for it. I’ll sign it without debating how SOME schools waste money, I’ll sign it whether my school is doing just fine and has funds left over at the end of year. I’ll sign it because not all school are equal. I’ll sign it because the issue of funding is not down to me and I would like the appropriate parties to discuss and review the matter.

And it’s the same with this petition. Not about my child or your child specifically, but ALL kids. Let it be discussed where it might make a difference.

We should speak out. If I speak up on one subject, and you on another it doesn’t put us against each other. We don’t negate or dismiss other causes. They all need to be heard. Raise your issues without dismissing others.

Da is at secondary and they get 20 mins and that's not until 1.40, he ways makes sure he has a big breakfast! 10 mins in the morning at 10.15. It's a long day imo.

bigKiteFlying
I think you have problems with your school OP – several – and I think you’re assuming because your child needs this all children do and I think that’s wrong.

Have you read the report? It isn’t about MY kid in particular. I related my personal experiences to show support and understanding of the reports findings.

I’m signing a petition that says let’s discuss breaks for kids because the report it links to shows that 85% of kids are struggling with insufficient breaks.

85% is not just MY kid, it’s not a few bad schools. If you have a great set up for your kid and think that reflects the experience of all kids so you don’t care, but more than that, you don’t want others to care, to discuss options...... I think that’s wrong.

loafifsellotale that’s the worst one yet, how are they supposed to learn if they are hungry, thirsty, low blood sugars etc.

I hope you’ll sign the petition!