To want all kids to have a proper break time in school?

[SugarPlumLairy2]

AIBU to think my dd should have sufficient time during lunch to actually eat her lunch?

My DD has additional needs and goes to a mainstream school. She has an EHCP in which she MUST have movements breaksthroughout the day. Usually the school useplay time/lunch for these breaks.

So I am fed up of her coming out of school, hungry, on verge of meltdown, anxious etc. Because there wasn’t time to have a movement break AND lunch. Other parents (SENS and Mainstream) have complained of the same, kids being held back because someone is messing about so WHOLE class has to wait. They miss break in the morning , Miss part or all of lunch break as punishment/to complete class work /practice lining up neatly etc. No afternoon break routinely scheduled . I’m fed up.
So many parents complaining of same thing too. Those breaks are really important for the kids to let off steam and rest before afternoon classes. And then when they are wired etc in the afternoon the teachers have to deal with the fallout. How is this helping anyone?

So this petition hit my Facebook and I have signed it. AIBU to ask you all to have a look and sign/share too? Please.

Our kids are under so much pressure in school, at least let them have a decent lunch.

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/legislate-for-90-minutes-playtime-in-a-school-day-and-make-removal-of-it-illegal?source=facebook-share-button&time=1558197250

The trouble with the whole class losing playtime is that the kids who are not guilty miss out unfairly. I was in a badly behaved class right through school and I really hated whole class punishments, there were a lot of them as well.

I don’t know what the answer is, obviously there needs to be a deterrent, but teachers surely do know which children are the culprits and could penalise only them?

I would also have thought that there would be no incentive not to join in with the troublemakers if the whole class is punished anyway.

Re the OP’s issue, I do understand your DD’s difficulty, but I think you need to focus on a solution for her rather than try and insist that it’s a problem for everyone else. (I have s DD with SEN and I know how frustrating it can be to know that your DC’s needs are not being met.

I know many have taken the time to respond without having had the time to read the petition links etc, so just wanted to add that the report said most kids would like a bit longer for lunch, to eat and just let off steam etc, most felt they weren’t listened to, and there was a link to shorter breaks being more common in urban areas or in communities with a higher level of free meals issued.

Another interesting point raised on a different site noted that teachers unions had legalised that teachers MUST have guaranteed breaks , yet we don’t or won’t allow allow that for children.
And just to play devils advocate... teachers don’t get paid for lunch breaks. So when you shorten a child’s lunch break the teacher gets the same pay but for a shorter day (I know they do class planning etc. ) point being who benefits more from the removal of breaktimes🤔

SugarPlumLairy2

Plenty of teachers don't get a lunch break. And usually a shortened lunch break is part of a re structure of the school day so that the same number of hours is worked, just in a different way.

My most recent school had a 15 minute break and 30 minute lunch on a rolling shift depending on year group. The plus side was that it was a shorter day, but I do think there was a connection with their issues of boys' behaviour and attainment. Break could be pretty much used up with moving from one classroom to another with a toilet stop on the way. Lunch wasn't long enough to eat and head up to the courts to play ball games. Hungry or pent-up students don't make good learners.

An extra 10 minutes of break time could have made a big difference in burning up energy, having a physical and mental break and avoiding lesson time trips to the toilet.

And just to play devils advocate... teachers don’t get paid for lunch breaks. So when you shorten a child’s lunch break the teacher gets the same pay but for a shorter day (I know they do class planning etc. ) point being who benefits more from the removal of breaktimes
Teachers pay is not the only cost associated with running a school. In trying to reduce the cost schools are reducing the number of hours a school is actually open (and therefore needs power and staffing).

DecomposingComposers are you a teacher perchance?

I think we put a LOT on teachers. I don’t think they should have to be educators, administrators, counsellors and a multitude of other things on limited pay. When the kids in our school don’t get adequate breaks you can see the downward turn in behaviour.

When the entire class is punished because one or two are “messing about” it creates a great deal of anger and shaming towards the kids who caused the delay. In our school that has led to bullying and shaming which has been brushed off as “well they should line up when told” (in one instance the child was trying to tie a shoelace and struggling under pressure).

Genuinely don’t see how that helps the teachers who will probably have a crabby class to deal with. Wish I DID have the answers.

SugarPlumLairy2

Nope, I'm not a teacher but my son is. He never gets a lunch break so I think you are unreasonable to say that teachers always get one.

There are lots of children that are better suited to shorter lunch breaks, if you get what you want with this petition, it will be actively detrimental to them. My ds was one that struggled socially as a child due to asd, so he preferred being in lessons than wandering round the playground alone.

I should imagine there are plenty of other children in that position, with or without ASD, and children that are bullied in any way won't benefit from longer breaks either.

That said, I agree that 45 minutes is too short for lunch.

You can't fight for this without at least thinking of a suggestion as to what teachers are supposed to do when a child messes around in a lesson and doesn't work, or when they've been found bullying another child at break, or when they've done anything else that means unstructured free playtime for an entire 90 minutes of the day is inappropriate.

DecomposingComposers that is terrible! He should have a word with his union rep because he absoliutely should have a break. Have a gander at paragraph 54.3 of the STPCD 2015. Think that’s right. I mean that genuinely because it’s a big deal being responsible for 30 kids if you’re not being supported properly.

Must be awfully hard to concentrate if he’s not had some lunch and a rest... oh .... wait 🤔😉

Teachers rarely get lunch breaks IME.

A 90 minute break would not be useful time. As a teacher you'd be constantly interrupted by (well meaning) students and staff. This would make my day an hour longer (current lunch 30 mins) and mean I probably left teaching as I wouldn't have time to do everything I need to and do pick ups and drop offs.

Secondary students move every hour anyway.

Most primary students aren't sat still for 2 hours in a row. Students get up all the time and move places for different lessons.

nails I just wanted the government too be aware that there is no standardised allotment of breaks for kids in Britain. In some areas it’s really not working, and you’re right not every child will want an hour long break but in the report it says 85% of kids thought breaks weren’t long enough and were an important chance to socialise.

If this got debated through the proper groups then it would be better solved than within rhe mumsnet community. I think it’s ok to say hey this isn’t working what can we do?

@SugarPlumLairy2 it's not just DecomposingComposers son that doesn't get a lunch break it's most teachers -they eat on the go whilst sorting out the afternoon lessons, marking the books from the morning etc.

Lunchtime is not taken away from teachers but they know if they can mark their books at lunch they will have a bit more time with their families after work.

Teachers are routinely working ridiculous hours, including working in the holidays...the unions are very well aware of this, so are the Government. Things won't change until teachers are allowed to teach and make decisions that benefit the children in their care.

@SugarPlumLairy2

Going back to the original point ...if your child has got an EHCP hasn't she also got someone identified to deliver the movement therapy work at specified times of the day-it shouldn't be hit and miss.

If Miss D delivering 15 minute sessions each lunchtime and it runs eg 12:00-12:15 then Miss D should be collecting her from class at 12 and this would get rid of the having to wait while other members of the class are spoken to.

Either that or ask that it can be done before lunch but you'll have to expect that she'll miss some class time each day-maybe they'd send home the work for you to do with her at home.

It seems to me that the delivery of the EHCP is the issue here.

Passtherioja

Absolutely. He also runs lunch time clubs, does revision sessions, homework help and is generally available for students to come and talk to him, or is making phone calls to parents who want to speak to him.

I don't think some people realise what schools are like any more.

I'm sure the government are aware.

If individual schools has a system that isn't working (eg. Too short breaks) it will come out. Through parent feedback/results/ofsted etc.

Schools will ensure they have to most appropriate timings with the resources they have. It is in no school's best interest to have a system/day that doesn't work and causes behavioural/mental health issues. Trust me, it is something that will thought about.

I don't think some people realise what schools are like any more.
This. Schools are being built without staff rooms now.. almost as if they don't want to actually take a break...!

Kids at my school voted for a shorter lunch break, they said an hour was too long and they were bored. Not allowed on their phones, you see.

I think this is an important discussion, play is important and learning to manage unstructured time is a vital work/life skill. It’s easier not to let them go too free range, but it isn’t the best choice for children themselves. Success in life is for most people linked to creativity, communication skills, initiative and secure mental heath. Out in the real world being passive, micro-managed or rote learning of fact based knowledge doesn’t carry you far. We need to step back and re-evaluate what we are educating children for. Not just talk of budgets, control and rules. We’ve forgotten many many successful, and cost efficient, school management strategies and learning from very recent history. I despair a bit on Mumsnet when I read threads about school.

We used to ‘fit the curriculum in’ with ks2 am and pm breaks and an hour lunch I’d say we had better behaviour and a FAR broader curriculum 10-15 yrs ago. Before that I taught in ‘rough’ east end high schools the hated Maths, rarely classroom support, big classes, shared textbooks but frankly more normal teenage behaviour.

ohForkItThen thank you for posting, you explained it so much better than I did.

Schools are turning into factory farms of over stressed/over worked staff and children. This is just one part of the broader picture, our education system needs reviewing.

It concerns me that when parents say “my child NEEDS proper breaks they are stressed” there is a chorus of “oh no they’re not!” In the same breath though we are told “Teachers don’t get breaks, THEY are stressed”. And No one disputes that. Surely both parties suffer the same consequences, but no one listens to the kids.

We are so busy defending our teachers (who I agree do work hard, long hours with not enough pay or support) but dont extend the same support to our children, whom are far less able to speak up and be heard, who have no power to represent themselves and yet in the same environment are obviously feeling as stressed and unsupported as the teachers.

Why don’t the kids get a voice? Two significant studies were made, the most recent one quoted in the petition. It clearly states ;

Pupils’ views on breaktimes
Findings from the survey of pupils’ views showed that pupils are overwhelmingly positive about break times and particularly the longer lunch break which 87% of pupils liked or really liked. Very few pupils (5%) expressed a dislike of these times. These findings are unchanged since the previous pupil survey undertaken in 2006....Pupils at primary and secondary levels valued breaks first and foremost for the opportunity they provide to socialise with friends. They also valued the opportunity for some free time, and the chance to choose what they wanted to do and/or to engage in playful activities. These values were largely consistent with those identified by the 2006 survey. Since 2006, all pupils, but particularly secondary-aged pupils, were more likely to value lunch time as time to eat and drink and less likely as a chance to get physical exercise.

And yet despite the overwhelming majority of kids stating they need a break, we’re ignoring that to say “oh no, they’re fine, they’d hate a longer break really”.

Choosing to advocate for the rights of our children doesn’t mean we don’t support the teachers, what’s good for the kids should make conditions better for the teachers. Win/win 👍

Longer lunch breaks cost more money so what should schools cut back on then to fund them?

What else do schools pay for that can be sacrificed to pay for the staff needed to supervise the longer lunch times?

We’ll have to ask the schools that are already doing 70 + minutes of break for their advice. It’s clear some are providing it so it IS achievable.

I don’t expect to tell the plumber how to fix the plumbing or the Dr how to diagnose and prescribe for me. It is my job as a concerned parent to notice the problem and seek help from those better equipped to deal with it.

I just wanted the government too be aware that there is no standardised allotment of breaks for kids in Britain

There’s not a standardised amount of hours of teaching time either bizarrely. A recommended amount, I think, but that’s all.

I agree with you, OP but sadly can’t see things changing by law nationally-not with academisation.

We have an hour and ten minutes lunch at the new school I’m here moving to, plus 15 minutes morning play and 10 minutes afternoon play!

Because some schools are in better positions financially - if they are at PAN then they will have more money, schools here in inner London get more money than in neighbouring boroughs, some schools will have prioritised longer breaks over other things (what they are I don't know).

So many schools are now in defecit budget that we will see more and more looking at ways to save money. I would imagine that many of those with an hour lunch break will be looking to cut it down.

I agree with the previous poster about budgets. My current school has no money-we made two teachers and 3 TAs redundant last year. All absence cover is done by TAs-I can’t remember the last time I saw a supply teacher. We provide our own paper and pencils and copying is strictly rationed. We’ve been reusing the same border roll on displays for years. There are virtually no TAs for classes now, just for cover and 1:1s but we have none of those as of September as the LEA have so far refused the ones that have been requested this year. There is also talk of dropping to a 4.5 week to save money. Hardly anyone has got a pay rise and if you’re part time and have been teaching a few years, there’s no chance of upping your days as you’re just too expensive. The job shares at my school will be ‘jobsharing’ with TAs come September.

I do agree with having more breaks in principle but as you can probably see from my post-things are so shit that this may just not be a priority.

How was the breaks question asked? If you asked my DC if they'd like more breaks then they would say yes. If they were told it was a choice between more breaks or a longer school day or no extra curricular, then they would tell you that actually they were quiite happy with the breaks they had and would rather socialise out of school.