To have told 6yo the truth.

[malm275]

Sorry it's a party/invite kind of thread....

DD is celebrating her 6th birthday next week. Every party that she has had so far has been a massive family/friends event with at least 30+ children to cater for. This year things are a bit tighter financially so dd is having a small cinema party with 6 invited guests from school and a couple from out of school that we are particularly close to. Dd is delighted and so excited. And we are massively relieved I'm getting whinged at left,right and centre by the 'uninvited' but that's a different thread
The one thing I asked dh to do this week was give the school invitations directly to parents and not give them to the teacher to hand out. Which he promptly did. Again, another thread Wouldn't necessarily be a huge problem but there is a girl at school, who will call herself dd's best friend, but actually is mean, pushy and very dominating over my daughter. And many other children School are aware and I have been trying to give my daughter the tools to deal with this kind of behaviour.
Long story short, she has been awful to dd this week about not being invited (she has never been invited to any of dd's parties anyway). Dd has left school in tears every day because this girl has been pressuring her each day for an invite, I know that I'm not bu to leave her out, dd doesn't want her there and I have given dd the option to just add her to the list, which was thankfully met with a very firm no, so I said we would just have to ride this one out and that dd didn't have to feel bad about her right decision. I floated the idea of inviting girl round for a play date to see if we could do some kind of relationship building but dd was unsure and I don't blame her, I don't really want this girl invading dd's safe space at home.
So anyway, this girl came out of school on Friday and asked me very loudly 'can I come to dd's party'. I replied 'no, sorry not this time'.
She asked why and I said 'because you are not very kind to dd'
Girl then burst into tears and ran off to her mum who gave me a filthy look as did half of the playground I went to go and talk to her but she walked off before I got there and I wasn't going to chase after her. I've always dealt with school with these matters they have asked me not to approach mum as they like to deal with things and have never even spoken to this girls mum as we are not normally on the playground for the same pick ups.
It's been on my mind all weekend. Girl obviously has some issues (not SEND as far as I know- but obviously I would never like to assume) and I try to be understanding of this but felt like I just wanted her to be told the truth about her behaviour for once and realise a consequence. Should I have just sugared the pill, said that it was a little party and not everyone could have an invite? That I couldn't afford it?
I work in a school and think that I am just getting so wound up with the constant pandering around some children and parents there that maybe I took out my frustration on this little girl.

And I don't agree with lying to kids

It is quite well documented that emotional insecurities can present as over confidence. People over compensate and try to make themselves more noticed. They may seek attention to fulfil a need.

Saying to the child that she wasn’t invited because it was only a small party would have been enough and the truth.

But the OP did say that, and it wasn't enough because the child persisted.

She was six years old pestering for a party invite...

But she should have been taught that you don't do that. Plus, the OPs dd does not want to invite her and so the answer is no to an invite. Which will upset the girl. So the OP couldn't do right for doing wrong could she?

@Alexkate2468

And that's for the parents to deal with surely? Why does that become everyone else's issue?

So when the child persisted, that’s where an adult to adult conversation takes place - despite whatever ‘rule’ the school have.

Decomposing - yes, exactly. The parents and other adults close to the child. It is their issue to sort out, not a parent from the school yard.

If a child asks a question and I answer it honestly, I am not parenting the child. The parenting is left up to the parent to deal with the child having to deal with the answer to the question.

It is up to the parent of the OP's child to parent their child - to advocate for their child, and shield their child.

Do you ever have children over on play dates? What happens if they misbehave? Do you not speak to them then?

There's a massive difference between stopping a child doing something dangerous/rude/messy in the moment they're actually doing it and addressing patterns of behaviour or issues that occurred in the past when you weren't even there. It's really parenting 101 that you shouldn't get involved in friendship disputes but should talk to the school about issues.

As adults we usually learn to temper our honesty with kindness and some tact.
There are threads on Mumsnet from time to time talking about dc saying someone was fat and a reasonable number of posters feel from a young age dc should learn not to say this. Not because it isn't true but because it is impolite and upsetting.
What OP said was true but it was impolite and upsetting.
There are many situations where adults are expected to be polite rather than truthful. Or to least consider the feelings of the person they are talking to.

And I don't agree with lying to kids

I bet you do. Or at the very least don't reveal the entire truth - especially to other people's kids. Saying only 6 friends were allowed and then closing the subject like an adult would be fine.

The parents and other adults close to the child. It is their issue to sort out, not a parent from the school yard.

Well they appear to be ineffectual don't they? The mum should have stepped in immediately. She didn't. She left OP to deal with it, presumably hoping OP would give in and invite the child and then mum wouldn't have to deal with the tears. As mum had abdicated responsibility for dealing with it OP was kind of lumbered wasn't she?

The mum needs to teach the child some manners. No way would my children have asked for a party invitation. You wait until asked. These are basic manners and 6 is plenty old enough to know that.

HolesinTheSoles

The OP has been talking to the school, to no avail.

And since when is bullying "friendship disputes"?

People tell white lies all the time, or an edited version of the truth.
I am smiling at the idea of an office where everyone said exactly what they wanted to with no regard to how what was being said would impact people. It would be chaos.

As adults we usually learn to temper our honesty with kindness and some tact.

And I think the OP did use tact and kindness because what she could have said was you are mean, spiteful, a bully. She didn't. She said you weren't kind to dd - so I think she did temper honesty with kindness and tact

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius I would have just repeated sorry not this time no matter how many times the child asked. But maybe that’s because I spend my life repeating things over and over! You’re right about being on alert with inappropriate SEN behaviour BUT when my child isn’t with me (eg how she acts with other children when in school) I can not help with that. I rely 100% on school to. And my child wouldn’t come out and tell me she’s been harassing a child all day (or any friendship interaction) as an NT might tell her parent about her interactions with other children. She’s oblivious to how her behaviour affects others and doesn’t have the vocabulary for it. Most of the time I hear about school stuff from her teacher or her NT sibling but I
Imagine a lot goes on I don’t know about/get told about.

I wonder if the child gets invited to any parties (I don't expect you know) and had been crying to her mum all week who, exasperated, just blurted out "why don't you ask her mum" or something. I can see that happening in one way or another.

Not your fault or responsibility though. Leave it to the school now and look forward to dd's birthday. Hope she has a great time 🎂🌈🎁

(I also bet that quite a few of those playground mums were thinking "oh thank goodness!")

@DecomposingComposers

Doesn't sound like bullying to me - not all unpleasant behaviour is bullying. My youngest has been on the receiving end of this kind of overbearing behaviour - she's quite timid and the school support her (and presumably the other child who has social skills to learn too). It would do My DD a disservice to protect her from all negative behaviour rather than give her the skills to cope.

In any case you'd have to be a real idiot to think you could solve it by yourself in the playground by reprimanding a child. If you feel the school aren't handling it correctly you go back in and complain. As an outsider you have no idea what's causing the behaviour, what's going on at home and what other issues the child has. You're totally unqualified to handle the situation other than by supporting your own child.

Doesn't sound like bullying to me

What constitutes bullying to you?

I think a child who is being mean, pushy, domineering and who causes another child to come out of school crying every day actually is being a bully.

And I don't think OP thought that she would solve the issue by saying something to the child. She was put on the spot by this child and when she saw that a fudged answer didn't work she answered more directly.

The OP wasn't trying to handle the situation by confronting this child. The child confronted her. Had the mother done what you suggest and had actually handled the situation with her own child the OP wouldn't have been put in the position of dealing with it all.

There are clearly two opinions on here. Some who think it was rude and bold behaviour on behalf of the girl and others who are seeking to excuse and justify it.

I guess those of us who would not accept our own children being so ill mannered are in the first camp.

@HolesinTheSoles - I agree with @DecomposingComposers - one child making another child cry every day does sound like bullying to me.

And the OP didn't try to tackle the issue by seeking out the child to reprimand her in the playground - the child approached her (with her mum looking on and doing nothing) and demanded to know where her invitation was - and then didn't take the gentle refusal that the OP gave her - and that was when the OP told her honestly why she wasn't invited to the party.

What constitutes bullying to you?

I agree with PP this is not bullying. Bullying is malicious. This sounds like a girl with confidence issues and not very highly developed social skills. Both children should be supported by the school in collaboration with their respective parents. This other girl needs to develop social skills and understand social boundaries better - she's only 6 and it's not unusual for some kids to be late developing this social skills and need support with them. OP's DD needs help being more assertive and needs to know when to seek support from school staff.

I have one very sensitive little girl too (in addition to a DS who is the opposite). She's had issues like this quite often as she seems to be a magnet to the dominant type. I've worked together with her reception teacher and at home and she's massively more capable at holding her own now. AS tempting as it is to swoop in and remove all conflict from our children's lives (and I've been massively tempted on numerous occasions...one particular girl spring to mind) it would actually do them a disservice as they don't develop coping skills or resilience to deal with the normal spectrum of human behaviour some of which is less than perfect.

I also agree that you have no idea what's actually going on with the child in question and everyone knows you shouldn't intervene unless it's to address behaviour going on in the moment. Speak to the school. One child who my DS had real problems with I was convinced was just a little shit with rubbish parents but went on to be diagnosed with ASD and ADHD (wasn't at all obvious). He has a 1-1 now and while isn't perfect is much improved and his behaviour in context makes much more sense.

UserName31456789

I really disagree. Whatever this girl's problems - be she's a bully, she's lacking in social skills, confidence issues, whatever they are not the concern of another child. If the OPs dd only has issues with this 1 girl then I don't think the problem is with the dd

I get so sick of people victim blaming. If someone bullied you it is not your fault, it is theirs.

Next you'll be saying OP needs to invite the little girl in order to build up her confidence etc.

The OP is responsible for her own dd. If this girl has problems that is for her mum and the school to deal with, not the other pupils.

everyone knows you shouldn't intervene unless it's to address behaviour going on in the moment.

Exactly what OP did. Addressed the asking for an invite.

Maybe, to address the problem at that time, she said have said those who ask, don't get, or words to those effect? Or you are rude for asking. The answer is no?

In my view you were not wrong to say what you did and don't worry, the little girl will get the message OK. She will know deep inside that she has not been kind to your DD and now she knows there are consequences. Yes she will get upset for a while but she may modify her behaviour as a result. Thinking back to when i was a kid, I was told with brutal honesty and clarity that some aspects of my behaviour were not going to win me any friends. I was mortified at the time and felt like it was the end of the world. But guess what, i got over it and changed my behaviour for the better.

I haven't read the whole thread but from the OP I don't see any bullying here. The other girl's behaviour isn't appropriate and I hope the school are intervening to help both her and DD who sounds like she lacks confidence and resilience. You can't label all undesirable or even unkind behaviour as bullying. It's also very obvious;y not a good idea to try and deal with another child's behavioural issues yourself. Won't work. You don't have the knowledge or the power to help however well intentioned.

It would be fine for OP to address the little girl's behaviour in the moment - she could have stopped the conversation. It was a mistake to address passed behaviour or behaviour that OP believes is happening when she isn't there to witness it. If OP is really worried she should definitely pursue it with the school though.