To be jealous of people with 3 children

[LovingLife0]

I have a 3 and 2 year old and DP and I have recently decided that we won't be having a third child. We have been talking about it for the past year but have made our decision primarily on environmental reasons.

Since making this decision I have become OBSESSED with families with 3+ children. For example I can't stop thinking how Kim Kardashian has 4 children and how many her children will have and all the carbon footprint. I also follow a few 'eco' families on insta who have as many as six children. As you can see I'm irrationally obsessed!! I KNOW everyone is entitled to their own choice and it's none of my business but I guess I'm just jealous!

I suppose I'm looking for advice on how I can move on from our decision to stop at 2 while not being jealous of people who go on to have large families?

I agree entirely with rationing and think it’s the only fair way. Making things more expensive penalises the poor. Saying every family has x allowance prince or pauper is the only fair way.

Alaskan, but it doesn’t matter how much tax the government has collected if the planet is dying. We need to stop the pollution not raise money from it.

You’ve misunderstood my point it’s not about collecting tax at all. It’s about forcing anyone who sells anything, anywhere, to do so in a way that puts right everything it has damaged in the process.

Where this is impossible, alternatives crop up.

It’s the same principle that has driven renewable energy innovation.

I’m guessing one of the very first casualties would be the majority of private jets, it’s not meant to be nice to rich people.

We have 3 - best decision every. I feel totally and completely content with our family. Not having another baby because of "environmental reasons"
sounds so weird and pretentious. I hope you don't actually tell people that's your reason in real life?

How on earth can not having another child because of environmental reasons be pretentious or weird? I would have said it sound caring, thoughtful and intelligent.

I tell people that me and DH chose to have NO children because of overpopulation. If people think that is weird or pretentious then, quite honestly, they are wankers.

I take it SajeW23 doesn't care about the planet or her children or their future childrens' future?

I love the santimonious 'having two is better for the environment'. At what age did you have those two?

Imagine 100 years ago 2 women were born. One got married at 20 and had 2 children at 21 and 22, those children also got married and had 2 children at 21 and 22 and so on. By the time this woman reaches 88 she will have the following descendents: 2 children, 4 grandchildren, 8 great grandchildren and 16 great great grandchildren. 30 descendents all using the earths resources at the same time.

The second woman doesn't get married until she is 40, she has 3DC at 41, 42 and 43. Those children also have 3 DC at 41, 42 and 43. When our second woman is 88 she has 3 children and 9 grandchildren. 12 descendants in the same time period as woman 1 had 30 descendants.

So which is worse for the environment? Delaying parenthood will have more of an impact on the environment than a spurious 'replacement rate' of 2 children per couple unless you are planning on euthanising grandparents when their grandchildren arrive.

I agree entirely with rationing and think it’s the only fair way. Making things more expensive penalises the poor. Saying every family has x allowance prince or pauper is the only fair way.

This is nothing but a planned economy. If you separate supply and demand, you destroy incentive, and in doing so, destroy innovation.

Battery/solar/wind technology, meat grown in labs, robotic bees, carbon-negative plastics, biomethane technologies - who's going to care?

Well that’s easy. Delay parenthood and only having 2. That’s what most people I know do anyway.

CountFosco you need to google linear vs geometric growth immediately.

I have no words of advice. I have stopped at one child because I have turned out to be really shit at parenting...but it drives me nuts that others have large families. It just feels completely unfair.

And exponential.

The theory “other people are doing bad stuff too” is pretty lame and unhelpful. Look I wish we could all merrily have 6 kids fly as we like and eat steak til the cows come home but I’ve read the reports and it’s bloody frightening. I’m not sanctimonious just really concerned. Don’t understand how any one with kids isn’t tbh

The second woman doesn't get married until she is 40, she has 3DC at 41, 42 and 43. Those children also have 3 DC at 41, 42 and 43. When our second woman is 88 she has 3 children and 9 grandchildren. 12 descendants in the same time period as woman 1 had 30 descendants.

I'm astounded that you produced this piece of logic.

I'd never even thought about the impact having children later in life could have - really interesting.

I wouldn't tell people IRL my reason for not having a third because it could come across judgemental of others, I agree. My dilemma isn't having my two children as they're already here and even 2 1/2 years ago when I conceived my second, I was ignorant of how much of an impact having a child can have. However, my original post wasn't about my two children, or even whether I should have a third, as we have decided not too.

It was more asking for advice on how I can stop being jealous of those with more than two and especially those that post pictures of their four wearing 'love the planet' t-shirts and the comment 'my tribe of eco-warriors'

I think from these posts i can see that as time passes the longing of wanting another child will pass...that and stop following ridiculous families on Instagram!

One thing that’s very clear is the selfishness of people is going to bring the end of the world.

The human world. If I were to call myself anything, it would be a 'planetarian' - I love the idea of the evolving world far more than I do any theoretical great grandchild. (think abck about how much anyone really gives two hoots about their great great grandparents - even if they know their names - to see how poor that argument is)

Evolution is a beautiful process, and humans are existing counter to it at the moment. We invent and develop solutions, we change the planet rather than changing ourselves. Good in principle, but there are vastly too many of us, and vastly too many who wouldn't survive the process of natural selection who are continuing to replace themselves.

I've been to lots of countries with small populations recently and they are just so much nicer.

OP:

Statistical likelihood of your 3rd child becoming genius climate scientist or leader to unite and change the world - 661/7 billion (ok, I made that up, but that's roughly 3 people per country in the world plus David Attenborough).

Statistical likelihood of your child growing up to be a consumer in the western world: 100%

I have 3. I'm often jealous of people with 2 (although obviously no real regrets!) - everything is designed around 2 adults/ 2 children. the struggle for us to hire a car, get a taxi, get a hotel room, book "family" tickets.. On a practical note, 3 are more troublesome! Also, if all 3 want/ need to be somewhere at different times, there are only 2 of us to drop them off and shuttle them around

My dd wants to be an environmental lawyer and save the planet, so I don't feel too guilty!

OP and Saje, I think it is important to speak about our fears for the future to people in RL. Absolutely. I had this conversation in my lunch break at work recently; colleagues with children, some hoping to have some soon, some deliberately child free. Nobody thought anyone was weird, but we were all sharing our misgivings about the future. One young colleague talking about the BirthStrike movement, feeling that they can't possibly become the parents they dream of becoming, because they care too much, so they are electing to not have children at all. Intelligent, caring people, educating themselves about the global climate emergency so they can make a decision based on integrity which they'll be able to live with. No judgement, just a deep and sad recognition of the facts, and that we are all human beings who depend on this planet for life. Tell the truth. While we do not talk about the climate emergency, for fear of others feeling 'judged' (wtaf?!), we are just colluding with a culture of 'business as usual', keeping the issue off the agenda. Just look at what has been achieved by activists globally in the last 9 months; men, women and children hell bent on talking about the climate, and getting politicians, policy makers, the media, neighbours, governments to talk about it too. The climate debate is now in the mainstream, governments are declaring climate emergency and the shoulder is to the door. Keep on pushing, keep on telling the truth.

Platypus, in that case, please look onto supporting the work of the wonderful Polly Higgins on ecocide and the criminalisation of ecosystem destruction

OP

I'm jealous of people with 3 DC because DH really wants a third and much as I love him and would like another myself, I just know that I could not cope. I really couldn't. Mental and physical health.

So I'm jealous because I wish I was a mum who could cope with 3.

Your 2 are still little. I thought DC would get easier as they got older but they really don't. The problems change but aren't necessarily easier.

Mine are 5 and 7 and the 7 year old frequently reduces me to tears. He was a high needs baby and toddler (with health issues meaning very little sleep). He sleeps better but my god his emotions are difficult.

vastly too many who wouldn't survive the process of natural selection who are continuing to replace themselves.

That flies uncomfortably close to a narrative of disability eugenics for my liking.

That flies uncomfortably close to a narrative of disability eugenics for my liking.

Well, I can 'comfort' you by saying that that's emphatically not the case, but then I'll probably do myself some damage with this next bit (you can even take disability totally out of the context and just consider disease, nutrition and fertility for this).

Say there's a pride of lions. There aren't enough antelope for them all to thrive. Some of the weaker males and females die - through malnutrition because they can't hunt well, fights with stronger lions for food. Their young die with them. Their lives are tied to the living conditions and there's nothing they can do but use the natural resources and their present evolutionary state to change that.

Now look at humans - there's disease, and we use medicine to treat it. people who would have died survive, and breed. There's a famine, but we intensify the means of production (causing untold environmental damage in the process). There are fertility problems, but we can fix those too. And each and every one of those people who survive or breed when they wouldn't have naturally adds to the overall picture of overconsumption. They also - at scale - become worse at solving problems than smaller groups of people, becuase there are ever-larger populations to keep all happy at once.

Unless humanity collectively pulls its finger out, then there WILL be resource deprivations and potentially wars of climate. In some cases, large scale deprivation based deaths (quite likely in regions wth poor geopolitical control) will occur. The climate will create bigger problems than it is our ability to solve.

This isn't down to any sort of agenda, so you can calm yourself about eugenicism. I'm not suggesting we decimate the population starting with people I don't like (ok, I'd love to do that in my office!). I'm just pointing out the difference between population management via evolution and the ways in which humans have subverted that, whilst simulatenously creating a high consumption environment for the survivors.

If it makes you uncomfortable - it should.

I have been desperate for a third for 5.5 years but DH refuses. I can’t tell people IRL how sad this makes me because I am otherwise very lucky. But I empathise with you. Also I do think about environmental reasons, eg how many nappies we sent to landfill. That’s not to say I wouldn’t have a third if DH agreed though.

I am trying to be happy with my fabulous two, do as many nice things as I can with them (on the train ), and I have deleted my Instagram account!

ciel this is so right and is the reason I think my DH has a point.

I thought DC would get easier as they got older but they really don't. The problems change but aren't necessarily easier.

AlaskanOilBaron

Oh, I know all about linear, polynomial and exponential curves, I'm a scientist. But knowing the difference doesn't affect this discussion, population growth is not linear and has not been for a few centuries.

If you really want to get population growth under control then instead of being rude to western women who chose to have three rather than two children you should do something about the forces that limit the access to women in the developing world to education and contraception. If women are given the choice they choose to limit their families.