What on earth is going on in America??

[Nanny0gg]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48275795

How can a supposedly 'civilised' society pass such a retrograde law?

And other states following suit?

Probably about the same proportion as in the US.

Probably?

You think 1/3 of Americans can afford to privately educate their children?

The point is that private education is a choice a parent makes.The UK also has religious private education, I wasn't even talking about that.

Your government, your state sponsoring the wholesale indoctrination of children.

Now personally, I don't think that makes British people religious, backwater assholes.

Just like as a dual citizen of the EU and US who is being fucked over by Brexit, which was voted for by the British don't make every person here an asshole.

Religion is definitely more pervasive here in the US (I say that as an Irish person living here). A lot of the childcare and sports activities in my area are run through churches, for example, and most people I meet wear their religion very openly on their sleeve, whether they are Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Muslim etc. I live in a relatively secular state but friends who live in red states tell me it’s even more pervasive there, e.g. their kids can’t even do sports without belonging to a church of some kind. In that respect I would say the US is closer to Ireland than the UK.

@SaskiaRembrandt

There wouldn't be a possibility of "safe" blood transfusions if it were not for civilised medicine. But even though we do have that, no one has the right to compel someone to give another person their blood. Or their kidney. Or part of their liver.

it's coming. They changed the law on organ donation, didn't they? They will most likely remove the opt out in due course. There are no "rights". There are just laws. It's how society works.

FloridaSunshine You are correct and I apologise and retract that - I'd (God knows how) forgotten about faith schools in the UK.

However I would still contend that religion is woven into the fabric of the USA in way it's (paradoxically) not in the UK, and that's a significant contributor to this State law.

Thank you. I think it's natural. If you grow up with it feels normal.

Every playgroup I attended in the UK was religious as well.

Jesus Christ. Even true Sharia Law allows abortion under certain circumstances - including rape, incest, major congenital defects of the baby and threat to mother's life. In that sense a comparison can't even be made to whatever this lunacy is.

And yes, in my area private religious schools are very popular! The best private schools here are either Quaker or Catholic or Jewish although there are a few secular ones too. There are also charter and low-cost private schools that are Christian.

I’m not the one saying Americans are backward idiots by the way. I live here so I’m familiar with the level of diversity of opinion and political affiliations across the states and regions.

NI has come up a lot on this thread, if you want to add your voice to support for NI women the BPAS are running a campaign that highlights the position on abortion laws for NI, and asks for them to be changed and links this to outrage over changes to abortion law in parts of the US. The email campaign is very simple you fill in your details and they send an email for you

nowforni.uk/email/

So many crazy religious zealots in certain parts of the usa,I very much doubt anyone will take notice of them.

it's coming. They changed the law on organ donation, didn't they? They will most likely remove the opt out in due course. There are no "rights". There are just laws. It's how society works.

They might have changed the law on organ donation, but despite your hyperbole, they haven't made organ donation compulsory, and are very unlikely to. And even if they did, it certainly wouldn't be from living donors. There is no law in the UK (or the US) which says a living person is legally obliged to offer another person their blood or organs, even if it would save the life of that other person.

And sorry, but there are rights! They form part of the law. Certain people might disagree with this, but it still doesn't stop them existing.

I am not sure why people are so shocked at this, when abortion is not allowed in Northern Ireland AT ALL. Be shocked at what is going on in our own country.

Dottierichardson Thanks for the link - just signed!

That's great Saskia

@Azrail so what do you think about abortion not being allowed in Northern Ireland at all? By the time that they find out that they are pregant, they have to spend weeks trying tk book an appointment in the UK, (appointments are not available on demand, they have to wait weeks), and then they have to spend time booking flights and getting over etc. Making the women panic, because it can bring them close to the time that they are allowed to have an abortion. How can we be outraged at what is happening in america, and not see thar this is also happening in our own country?

Fwiw, the rape/incest exception will be introduced if the law clears the Supreme Court. It's 'clean' as to be a test case.

From the AP's story: "The bill’s sponsor and other supporters had argued that exemptions would weaken their hope of creating a vehicle to challenge Roe. [Rep. Terri] Collins said the Alabama law isn’t meant to be a long-term measure and lawmakers could add a rape exemption if states regain control of abortion access."

Which, FFS, is so cruel: the lack of a rape exemption is political not ideological. I disagree with the ideology, but at least it's consistent. This is straight up sacrificing rape victims for political advancement.

So because abortion isn't allowed in Northern Ireland, we're not allowed to be angry about it being banned in Alabama? How does that work?

What's going on is that there is a recognition that the unborn child has rights.

Less than 2% of abortions are done due to rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother. That means 98% of them are done because the woman decided that she didn't want to be pregnant or because someone else forced her to have an abortion. (In at least one study, 60% of women seeking an abortion said they were doing so because of pressure from someone else.)

NO ONE is saying that you need to raise a baby you can't afford. You can place the baby for adoption. With open and private adoptions available, you can still choose to have contact with the child. You can even select the parents.

Some people will say, "Well, it's better they're aborted than end up in the system". Consider this: less than half of children in the system are even available for adoption. Some are in care temporarily. Others are born to parents who couldn't care for them but have not given up their parental rights. Are you prepared to force abortions on women who apparently can't care for their children? Moreover, would it be acceptable to kill an already-born child just to prevent him/her from ending up "in the system"?

You should know that actually, an unborn child can be owed a duty of medical care. As a nurse, I can be sued for negligence up to 21 years after the birth of a child. The parents can sue on the child's behalf up to 18 years afterward, and the child has an additional three years to sue. How can a duty of care be owed to a "non-person"?

It is incumbent on women to recognize that sex can lead to babies, no matter how careful you are. It's also incumbent on them to recognize that once you're pregnant, you already have a baby. Ending your child's life because it's not a good time for you to be pregnant is not an option.

AgileLass Don't be pedantic. 'British Isles' then. The UK had a big influence in the RoI vote, as many of the women seeking abortions travelled to the mainland for legal abortions.

Nesssie, what you posted isn’t even remotely ok and challenging it isn’t being pedantic. Ireland is not part of the UK, it’s a separate, sovereign country and is as much a part of the UK as France is. The UK and Ireland are neighbours, that’s it. The fact that so many people are ignorant of that is not just fucked up but it’s a big part of just why the UK is in such a Brexit-y mess.

It is incumbent on women to recognize that sex can lead to babies, no matter how careful you are.

Why not men too ?

The sperm of a rapist is worth more than the rights of a rape victim.

True and truly frightening.

Ending your child's life because it's not a good time for you to be pregnant is not an option.

It absolutely is an option. A great one.

what do you think about abortion not being allowed in Northern Ireland at all? By the time that they find out that they are pregant, they have to spend weeks trying tk book an appointment in the UK, (appointments are not available on demand, they have to wait weeks), and then they have to spend time booking flights and getting over etc.

The situation for women in NI is fucked up but it has thankfully improved this year. Irish abortion legislation was specifically designed to include NI residents and is free other than the cost of petrol, bus or train fare. Though the stupid cooling of period of 3 days unfortunately means that journey must be done twice.

No, not the sperm. The child that was produced - who was never at fault for the rape, who should not be punished for the sins of the father, and whose death will not erase what happened nor provide justice.

Did you know that 70% of rape victims who become pregnant choose to keep the baby? I've been privileged to meet one of these hero mums.

Quinetella

What if you have a 2-year-old and lose your job and you're unable to find another one? Does it then become acceptable to kill your child because he/she is an inconvenience?

There have been women who killed their already-born children because they weren't convenient, most commonly because they were in love with a man who didn't want the kids.

To be fair DJ that is what's quoted to men who are complaining that women are choosing to keep a, to them, unwanted pregnancy.