What on earth is going on in America??

[Nanny0gg]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48275795

How can a supposedly 'civilised' society pass such a retrograde law?

And other states following suit?

Another piece of evidence suggesting that religion is deeply fucked up, nonsensical and designed to control the masses...( especially women.) Awful.

I blame Mike Pence and his ilk.

@sheettent - not what I said at all.

But it seems pretty obvious to anyone that the US is a more religious place - both as a whole and in pockets than the UK, which the point people were making when you patronisingly sneered about "two trips to Florida". Like the poster you sneered at I've been to California, Nevada, most of New England, Upstate New York, and yes, Florida (that was on business as it goes, not Disney). I couldn't help noticing - the number of churches, the number of religious channels on TV and Radio, and the fact that the word "Hell" is swearing (but bastard and snazzy aren't). Of course my experience like yours is anecdotal so I took a look at a few surveys, all of which seem to agree that religious observance is higher in the US than we are used to in the UK.

If there isn't such a religious lobby in the USA how do you explain the fact that debate rages over the teaching of creationism in schools? That isn't an issue in the UK - why not?

The fact is that without the powerful influence of religion in the USA, this law wouldn't exist, so your anecdotal experience of mixing with people who aren't religious is interesting but doesn't explain how this happened.

It's ridiculous isn't it! I have written about my own abortion today in the hope of explaining pro choice a bit better... Feel free to have a read. www.girlsgospel.com/im-not-ashamed-of-my-abortion/

@Spinnaret
But it isn't a baby. It's a foetus, that cannot survive without the uterus in which it resides.

That's a bit facile, I think. None of us are self sufficient. None of us would live more than a few weeks without the framework of civilisation. There wouldn't be a possibility of "safe" abortion if it were not for civilised medicine. To my mind it's not as simple as a woman's absolute "right" to choose. Indeed that isn't actually what the law IS, although it may well be what happens in practice.

None of us are self sufficient. None of us would live more than a few weeks without the framework of civilisation.

What utter waffle. We're not talking about some hazy idea of 'civilization', we're talking about the physical ability to survive outside the womb.

Have none of these senators read Freakonomics?

What makes you think they can read ?

but bastard and snazzy aren't

Sorry to go widely off topic, but snazzy is swearing? I had no idea, I use it often. What does it mean?

Sorry it was autocorrect - should have read spazzy - which I have heard used on Kid's TV (Victorious amongst others).

Snazzy is definitely not a swear word! I've always assumed it's a portmanteau of snappy and jazzy.

Okay, spazzy has no place of kids' tv.

You clearly don’t understand American culture. They are very very pro-life over here. So much so, they* want everyone armed to the teeth with assault rifles in daily life and deny healthcare to sick children if their parents are poor. Very pro-life culture! Socialist commie leftist Europeans with their socialised medicine and gun regulations could never hope to understand such firmly pro-life values.

• Most normal Americans don’t share these ‘values’ but there is a bulwark of hardline conservatives in the red states that are pushing for these laws while hypocritically denying people healthcare etc.

That's a bit facile, I think. None of us are self sufficient. None of us would live more than a few weeks without the framework of civilisation. There wouldn't be a possibility of "safe" abortion if it were not for civilised medicine. To my mind it's not as simple as a woman's absolute "right" to choose. Indeed that isn't actually what the law IS, although it may well be what happens in practice.

Dear God, you're scraping the barrel with this.

No, none of us are self-sufficient - so what? That doesn't mean we have the right to use another person's body as a life support system.

There wouldn't be a possibility of "safe" brain surgery if it were not for civilised medicine.

There wouldn't be a possibility of "safe" pain killers if it were not for civilised medicine.

There wouldn't be a possibility of "safe" chiropody if it were not for civilised medicine.

There wouldn't be a possibility of "safe" blood transfusions if it were not for civilised medicine. But even though we do have that, no one has the right to compel someone to give another person their blood. Or their kidney. Or part of their liver.

I could go on ...

badlydrawnperson Thank you! I was quite worried I'd been offending people for years.

Quintella It's sounds as though it would a portmanteau. I like it, it's very descriptive.

I hate autocorrect and normally turn it off - apologies this one slipped through.

I think there is a tendency to see what you grew up with as normal. It makes it easier to see the weird in other countries.

But as someone who grew up in Florida, I had no knowledge of "creationism" and religion wasn't allowed to be taught in a state school. I believe when creationism is discussed it is to be taught as a theory alongside evolution much like in RE which every child does in the UK does no matter which school they go to. You know there's an obligation for every school to teach RE and that it should have a high percentage (higher than any other) of Christianity?

My children and I live in the UK and in their Catholic school they have learned all about the Bible, how Jesus is real, and he died and was reborn etc. All learned as fact.

1/3 of schools here are religious. They learn fairy tales as fact. Daily.

In this first world country, 1/3 of schools are propped up by religion and people have no choice but to send their children or home educate.

Does it occur to people that in America we have these arguments because religion isn't allowed in schools, not because it already is?

Where is the uproar that your children are being taught that Jesus did magic 2000 years ago and are spoon fed a religion that leads to all of this shit?

badlydrawnperson don't worry. It happens to me all the time. I once sent a client an email in which the word 'park' autocorrected to crap

*and no, I'm not saying evolution and creationism concepts before someone tries to say that in order to ignore the points I made.

There are plenty of religious schools in the US too, FloridaSunshine. Probably about the same proportion as in the US. Most are private, yes, but Betsy deVos and those who support her are also trying to introduce public religious education by stealth through the charter school system.

@FloridaSunshine10 exactly!

These threads can be used as a chance to bitch about how backwards Americans are rather than to show support and sympathy to people who have broadly similar ideas to British women about abortion but who are being systemically stepped on by their government.

*about the same proportion as the UK, I mean!

@FloridaSunshine You are correct and I apologise and retract that - I'd (God knows how) forgotten about faith schools in the UK.

However I would still contend that religion is woven into the fabric of the USA in way it's (paradoxically) not in the UK, and that's a significant contributor to this State law.

I'm not saying America is backwards BTW - was trying to make an observation, not a value judgement - although on the whole I am opposed to the abortion law changes proposed.