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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What on earth is going on in America??

878 replies

Nanny0gg · 15/05/2019 10:27

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48275795

How can a supposedly 'civilised' society pass such a retrograde law?

And other states following suit?

OP posts:
agnurse · 15/05/2019 19:07

Most of us who are pro-life want to make abortion unthinkable by ensuring that women are not in circumstances that lead them to consider abortion.

As far as birth control - the sad reality is that contraception leads to abortion because abortion becomes the "backup plan". In at least one study, over half of women seeking an abortion WERE using birth control. I have heard - from the women themselves - of women who got pregnant while using TWO types of birth control.

A better recommendation is to teach women to monitor their own fertility and then to abstain during fertile periods if they don't want to get pregnant. Do NOT rely on the CDC stats to tell you how effective these methods are - they include in their statistics the old "rhythm method", which we know does not work. Modern methods, such as Billings, Creighton, Marquette, and Serena, are based on observation of physical signs and symptoms and demonstrate much better efficacy. Billings, in particular, has been extensively studied and has similar efficacy to the Pill.

Learning about how to chart your cycle is helpful not only in preventing pregnancy, but also in determining the cause of some health issues, such as polycystic ovary syndrome.

DoomOnTheBroom · 15/05/2019 19:07

Many anti-choice groups seem to overlap with those who have a preference for abstinence-only teaching

I also find they overlap with the "she invited it" school of thought with regard to rape.

These types of people, consciously or not, believe that an unwanted pregnancy is a fitting punishment for daring to have sex.

agnurse · 15/05/2019 19:08

Did you know that the judges who passed Roe vs. Wade were men?

Did you also know that "Jane Roe" from Roe v. Wade never actually had an abortion, and that in her later years, she was adamantly against abortion?

DoomOnTheBroom · 15/05/2019 19:09

Learning about how to chart your cycle is helpful not only in preventing pregnancy

Aka, how DC4 was conceived...

agnurse · 15/05/2019 19:09

We do not see pregnancy as punishment. I also do not believe that women "invite" rape.

Our concern is for the rights of unborn children, who have not committed any crime, and who have as much right to life as anyone else.

Currently, the age of viability is about 20-22 weeks. What if eventually we got that as low as 6 weeks? Would you still support abortion if the baby could be saved? If so, it's not really about bodily autonomy, is it?

Jebuschristchocolatebar · 15/05/2019 19:10

Lest we forget someone in NI arrested for taking an abortion pill last year.

DoomOnTheBroom · 15/05/2019 19:11

abortion becomes the "backup plan". In at least one study, over half of women seeking an abortion WERE using birth control. I have heard - from the women themselves - of women who got pregnant while using TWO types of birth control.

Cite your sources.

And the fact they were on contraception, sometimes double contraception, shows they really didn't want to get pregnant hence taking steps to prevent it. Of course abortion should be available as a back up plan for those who want/need it.

Sakura7 · 15/05/2019 19:13

You're posting some amount of fanciful bullshit there @agnurse

agnurse · 15/05/2019 19:16

So if they really didn't want to get pregnant why were they having sex? They know it leads to babies, correct?

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 15/05/2019 19:17

So if they really didn't want to get pregnant why were they having sex? They know it leads to babies, correct?

Because they wanted sex bit no babies.

Why is that so hard to understand?

agnurse · 15/05/2019 19:19

One of the purposes of sex is procreation.

This would be akin to saying, "well, I want to smoke, but I want to make SURE I don't get lung cancer".

You cannot have sex without consequences. How would you feel if a woman had several children and then just up and decided that she really didn't want her children anymore?

DoomOnTheBroom · 15/05/2019 19:20

What if eventually we got that as low as 6 weeks?

We're not talking about eventually, we're talking about now.

Our concern is for the rights of unborn children, who have not committed any crime, and who have as much right to life as anyone else

The unborn have no rights, the woman has the right to bodily autonomy and is under no obligation to take on the risks or limitations of carrying a pregnancy to either viability or term.

9 out of 10 abortions in this country take place before 13wks with the majority happening prior to eight weeks. There is nothing viable about a pregnancy at that stage.

Marvelendgame · 15/05/2019 19:22

agnurse many of us believe that there is nothing wrong with abortion being a back up to contraception.

I would much prefer there to be safe legal abortion than any woman be forced to continue a pregnancy that she does not want.

DoomOnTheBroom · 15/05/2019 19:23

You cannot have sex without consequences.

Yes, you can. Sex has been for fun since time immemorial and pregnancy is not a punishment or a consequence for having sex, people have been trying to find ways to have sex and avoid pregnancy since time immemorial too. This is why contraception exists nowadays and why there are back up options available should that contraception fail.

Pregnancy is a risky business, no one should be forced into it.

agnurse · 15/05/2019 19:26

By the end of 5 weeks of pregnancy, the fetus has a beating heart. By the end of 8 weeks, all major organ systems are present. They just need additional time to grow and develop.

This is not a "clump of cells".

If we note that people have basic human rights, and that children in particular have human rights, we note that it is incumbent upon others to provide for those rights. This means that you do not have unlimited bodily autonomy because you have a responsibility to ensure the rights of others, particularly those dependent on you.

3timeslucky · 15/05/2019 19:26

Most of us who are pro-life ...

Everyone is pro-life. It is a meaningless (if value laden) descriptor. The term you're looking for is "anti-choice".

As an aside, this is like falling down the rabbit hole and finding myself back in post-Repeal Ireland. No prettier here than it was there.

3timeslucky · 15/05/2019 19:26

That'd be pre-Repeal Ireland of course!

DoomOnTheBroom · 15/05/2019 19:28

By the end of 5 weeks of pregnancy, the fetus has a beating heart. By the end of 8 weeks, all major organ systems are present. They just need additional time to grow and develop.

So? If the woman doesn't want to continue it she doesn't have to. It has no sentience, no consciousness, and it is not a functional human.

Ginger1982 · 15/05/2019 19:29

I'd love to see where all this info on 'post-birth abortions up to age 2' comes from.

FlyingElbows · 15/05/2019 19:30

Agnurse, you know the sex free utopia you seek isn't a reality, don't you? You're clearly American so your extreme stance is perhaps more understandable but I'm struggling with the "nurse" bit because a lot of what you're touting as fact is questionable at best.

Lweji · 15/05/2019 19:30

I can't believe how this thread is going.

They want to force victims of rape and incest (well... rape By relarives) to carry unwanted children.

It's not even about using abortion as contraception.

It's just men telling women they have to put up with the consequences of men's criminal acts. Angry

MrsKCastle · 15/05/2019 19:31

Most of us who are pro-life want to make abortion unthinkable by ensuring that women are not in circumstances that lead them to consider abortion.

You can't ensure that. No one can. If I got pregnant now, having a baby would put my mental health at risk, along with my marriage and my job. It would have a very detrimental effect on my two existing children.

It's not realistic to say well don't have sex then as that would impact on my relationship with my husband.

I don't believe I would be able to carry a pregnancy to full term and give the baby up for adoption.

I could, and would, terminate a pregnancy at an early stage. It would be the best thing for me and my family. No one else should have any right whatsoever to say what happens to my body.

agnurse · 15/05/2019 19:31

Abby Johnson, a former Planned Parenthood director, eventually became pro-life and left Planned Parenthood. She now works to support the rights of unborn children and has started a charity, And Then There Were None, which supports people leaving the abortion industry.

Abby has noted that when she worked for Planned Parenthood, there was an abortion doctor who believed that post-birth abortion should be legal up to age 2. Philosopher Peter Singer believes that a newborn's life is worth less than that of an adult animal.

Newborns don't have much in the way of sentience. They're not really functional humans either. Does that mean it's okay to kill a newborn?

Dottierichardson · 15/05/2019 19:35

As far as birth control - the sad reality is that contraception leads to abortion because abortion becomes the "backup plan". In at least one study, over half of women seeking an abortion WERE using birth control. I have heard - from the women themselves - of women who got pregnant while using TWO types of birth control

As with other posters these women (and presumably transmen) did not wish to get pregnant did their best to prevent it and had a termination when those preventatives failed. Also, the study you cite which is it? Who carried it out? The premise sounds very spurious, as any researcher knows correlation does not imply causation. But since anecdotal evidence seems to be your stock in trade, as someone who has enjoyed sex since my teenage years, quite a while ago btw, and has been fortunate enough to never have an unwanted pregnancy, I can assure you that contraception when it works is fine.

The method you cite is not known for its reliability

FAMs are about 76-88% effective: that means 12-24 out of 100 couples who use FAMs will get pregnant each year, depending on which method(s) are used. If you use multiple FAMs together, they work even better.
The better you are about using FAMs the right way — tracking your fertility signs daily and avoiding sex or using birth control on “unsafe” days — the more effective they’ll be. But there’s a chance that you’ll still get pregnant, even if you always use them perfectly.
Fertility awareness methods don’t work as well as other types of birth control because they can be difficult to use. Want a more effective way to prevent pregnancy? Check out IUDs and implants, or take this quiz to find the birth control method that’s best for you.

www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/fertility-awareness

Additionally the small percentage of people who don’t’ use or have no access to contraception account for half of those who have unplanned pregnancies, which directly contradicts your claims

About 90 percent of sexually active women use some form of contraception. The 10 percent of women who do not use contraception account for approximately half of unplanned pregnancies, but the other half occur in women who were attempting to use some form of birth control.

shriverreport.org/why-are-50-percent-of-pregnancies-in-the-us-unplanned-adrienne-d-bonham/

SentientPotato · 15/05/2019 19:36

Are you genuinely thick? It's clear you're lieing about being a nurse so I won't push that any further, but most people with a modicum of intelligence can figure out the difference between a newborn baby and an unborn foetus. Why can't you?

Here's a novel idea. Don't like abortion- don't have one. Keep your meddling misogynistic foul opinions OUT of my sex life and OUT of my uterus.

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