What on earth is going on in America??

[Nanny0gg]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48275795

How can a supposedly 'civilised' society pass such a retrograde law?

And other states following suit?

Currently, the age of viability is about 20-22 weeks

Source? The earliest premature baby to survive was born at 21w6d - Amillia Taylor who was born in 2007 in Florida.

If you know of a case where a baby has been born prior to that and survived, please say so.

It's just men telling women they have to put up with the consequences of men's criminal acts

And that men are free to stick their dicks wherever they like and women will be left to deal with the shit afterwards because women mustn't ever want sex for anything other than procreation, they mustn't ever want to establish a career while child free, they mustn't ever want to put their own health and their own sanity first because that simply isn't womanly. They must sit, passive and meek, and take whatever "gifts" God bestows upon them including the gift of children and if it wasn't a wanted child or or if the pregnancy might kill them or if it would mean a poorer quality of life, dropping out of school, limiting her freedom... well then, you shouldn't have been having sex should you, you dirty slut?

And that's the underlying reasoning of the "pro-life" philosophy.

Agnurse... leaving aside the fact that a foetus is not legally a separate person... You do not have to provide for others' human rights at the expense of your own, either morally or within the law. Absolute bodily autonomy is not optional for consenting adults and as far as possible for all humans. I cannot be forced to give up a kidney for somebody else, even though I may choose to. I cannot be forced to be tube fed, even though I may choose to if it's offered (I can't demand it). And I sure as shooting cannot and will not be forced to be pregnant or give birth if I don't want to.

I can guarantee, however, that I will never force anyone else to have an abortion.

Ok I think I’m going to scroll part agnurse’s posts now. Just seen the latest post about newborns. She’s fucking nuts and wasting my limited time. Can she go any lower?

agnurse If a woman really doesn't want or can't care for a child, isn't it better for the child to be aborted before say 10 weeks, than to be born and raised by someone who doesn't want/can't care for it?

All this talk of post-birth abortion, up to 2 years, is of course utter nonsense. But women who are trapped in pregnancy, and unable are surely more likely to have difficulties caring for and bonding with the child? If all babies were genuinely wanted and chosen, then less toddlers will be resented and unloved?

Abby has noted that when she worked for Planned Parenthood, there was an abortion doctor who believed that post-birth abortion should be legal up to age 2. Philosopher Peter Singer believes that a newborn's life is worth less than that of an adult animal.

First of all Peter Singer is known for being a bit out there when it comes to philosophical debates and also for being a bit of an agent provocateur, which is fairly common in ethics as a branch of philosophy, it's standard in some arenas to state an extreme position in order to debate issues. Secondly what does this have to do with the case in hand? It's like trying to scare map-makers with tales of flat-earthers, it's irrelevant and a poor attempt to distract from the case in hand.

And these "pro-life" men are also against things like health cover for all, decent minimum wages and/or decent social security.
I bet they won't pass any laws guaranteeing these women mental health support or even financial support.
Plain hypocrisy.

We do not see pregnancy as punishment

I've been pregnant twice, with much loved children. It was hell on earth. And the birth was even worse. And the post natal period was worse again, and I am still receiving treatment for the effects of that over a decade later.

So can you explain to me how exactly you can assure me that were I to be the victim of rape now, and find myself pregnant as a result, I would not suffer?

What if eventually we got that as low as 6 weeks? Would you still support abortion if the baby could be saved? If so, it's not really about bodily autonomy, is it?
At six weeks what we have is an embryo, it does not yet have any organs and it’s the size of a lentil. Presumably if six weeks is your limit and you view an embryo as equivalent to a baby – what nursing school did you go to? Starting to think it may have been an online correspondence course – then presumably you are also anti IVF and view infertile women using this, a treatment in which embryos are often unused, as murderers – since that’s what you implied about women who have abortions earlier on this thread.

Women can die as a result of pregnancy and birth...
Maternal mortality rates in the US are quite high for a developed country.

But pregnancy is just nothing for a woman.

So if they really didn't want to get pregnant why were they having sex? They know it leads to babies, correct?
Sex is also a means of establishing closeness and intimacy, as well as a source of pleasure. Sad that you don't see that. In your world women would presumably be baby-makers and sex would be for that purpose only. and then what wait for menopause to actually enjoy it? OR maybe you want to return to the old state of affairs that occurred in a number of strongly Catholic countries in the past and centre pleasure around anal sex? Again it's usually the women who lose out, lived close to a very old-school religious community at one point, also a massive red-light district. Sex was about procreation for the women of the community but strangely not the case for the men.

I’m guessing you are not posting in good faith @agnurse because you keep spouting factoids with no sources and have yet to engage seriously with the real issues raised on this thread.

Maybe you are just too busy taking care of all the children you have adopted or donating your ‘nursing’ skills to aid children of the uninsured... Still no update from you on that: how do you help children in your daily life? Or are you only interested in the clump-of-cells age group? So cute when they’re that age, aren’t they?

agnurse, you believe life begins at conception, or at least that a foetus is no different to a person who has been born? If so, maybe you could answer my previous question?

Even if you believe that life begins at conception, how can you justify a foetus being given rights that massively exceed those of humans who have been born? As I keep saying, no 'born' person has the right to legally compel another to give up their bodily autonomy in order to sustain or save a life. Why are foetuses different to people who need blood transfusions, or kidney transplants? In fact, to compare what you may consider like with like: why are foetuses different to newborn babies who require blood transfusions or organ transplants? Why does that right end the moment someone is born?

This means that you do not have unlimited bodily autonomy because you have a responsibility to ensure the rights of others, particularly those dependent on you.

So what a woman serves for is an incubator.

No sex, except for procreation, no alcohol and cigarettes because responsibilities, innit.

Thanks for that.

Let me give you a scenario. You have two children. You have enough food to feed yourself and one of the children, or both children. It is not an option for you to let Social Services take your children.

Do you have the right to deliberately starve one of your children to death so that you and the other one can survive? After all, wouldn't your children be miserable if they had no mum?

Ok I think I’m going to scroll part agnurse’s posts now. Just seen the latest post about newborns. She’s fucking nuts and wasting my limited time. Can she go any lower?

From her latest post pretty fucking low!

By the end of 5 weeks of pregnancy, the fetus has a beating heart.

So do newborn babies, but they don't have the legal right to use the body of another person to sustain their life. Why is that?

A blood transfusion or kidney transplant is extraordinary care. Leaving a developing baby to develop is ordinary care. There is an obligation to provide ordinary care.

Actually, yes, there ARE circumstances where you can be required to surrender your bodily autonomy for another person. For example, in Quebec it is mandatory to stop and provide first aid to an injured person. Keep in mind that all of us are compelled to pay taxes. You have to be licensed to drive. You can't trespass on someone else's property. All of those are limitations on bodily autonomy.

Moreover, you can't ask someone to kill and eat you just because that's what you fancy. (This is not theoretical. Google the Armin Meiwes case. He killed and ate someone with that person's explicit consent.)

A newborn baby DOES have the right to use another person's body. You need to feed your baby, whether by breast or bottle. You need to change nappies. That requires you to be physically there for the baby.

Actually I am not lying about being a nurse. I have a Bachelor of Nursing with distinction and a Master's of Nursing. Both are from accredited universities.

You cannot have sex without consequences

Oh yes you can! I've been doing it my entire adult life, sometimes with people I wasn't even married to. On a few occasions with people I never saw again. I realise that according to you that means I deserve to be punished with 'consequences', but meh. Your weird and hypocritical morality isn't the boss of me, thank the gods.

agnurse you have not answered the question. The analogies you have used are not comparable. Please answer the question!

A newborn baby DOES have the right to use another person's body.

That is not a legal right.

Actually it IS a legal right. The Universal Declaration on the Rights of the Child states that children's rights include the right to food, for example. A newborn can't feed itself.

Masters in bullshit. Still peddling the "what if you had to choose between two children" bollocks? Your accredited university has done a shit job with your education if you equate starving a living breathing child with having an abortion.

Of course they have a right to food. But many people can provide a newborn with food.