To have a 5th child

[Flowerflow]

I have 4 children ages 13, 9, 8 and 4 (5 in a few days), recently DP and I have been discussing have another child, he completely up for it but I'm still a little unsure. I have a few concerns like we currently live in a 4 bedroom house, oldest two share and youngest two have their own bedrooms. 8 year old is the only boy and if were to have another boy they would probably share but there would be a big age gap and DS wouldn't be impressed. That or we move to a bigger house which we might not be able to afford where we currently but would be able to if we move slightly further away. Another concern would be there'll be 5/6 between them and our current youngest so new baby might feel left out or the odd one out although not all our children are very close in age. I'm also unsure about going through pregnancy again, I've never really enjoyed it, baby, toddler stage and so I'll happily go through again but pregnancy I'm willing to go through not exactly happily though. On the other hand I'd love to have a fifth child and these concerns and problems can be worked through

I don’t think I it’s just cranky green voters who hold the view that we need to all act in this. It’s gone wider than that now. Have you read the recent reports?

Crushedvelvet, me and DH married nearly 40 years ago and when we discussed whether to have children or not one of main concerns was overpopulation. So some people have been aware of the problem years ago.

I have no hidden agenda as to why I think more than 2 children is wrong. I won't be around to see the awful consequences of what humans have done to the planet but it still saddens me. I may not have children but I worry about the future for my nieces and nephews and my friends' children.

I don't doubt that it is a consideration for some people, judging by this thread it evidently is.
Still, I have had lots of conversations throughout my adult life with many people, both parents and childless people and not once, even hypothetically have I encountered this ideal of 'two children to replace the parents and no more, for environental reasons.

Believe me, I am not the kind of person that people feel the need to tiptoe around for fear of fear of alienating or upsetting me.
I have friends of quite disparate political and ideological persuasions and we can agree to disagree because fundamentally we rub along well and quite like each other.
I imagine if any of my outspoken friends thought I was selfish for having five children, in an ecological sense they probably would have mentioned it to me by now.

The best advice I can give to you to lend real life credence to your views is to discuss them openly with other adults; after all if you hold the conviction that large families truly are overwhelmingly contributing to the demise of the planet then surely you must feel compelled to get this message out there.
And by out there I mean in real life, in actual conversations with other adults whom you personally know.

What's a bit of upset if it stops somebody having a fifth baby?
I wish somebody had the gall to tell me that I was wrecking the planet three children ago....

Op:
I had 4 dc when I unexpectedly fell pregnant at 41. The 5th child would have pushed us to the brink financially & physically but I couldn’t face a termination so I took the ‘we’ll cope somehow’ approach.
Sadly, I had a late miscarriage ( 19 weeks ) which caused me terrible mental health issues for years, still affects me to this day if I’m honest ( it was 15 years ago )
So please please be thankful for the 4 children you have and quit while your ahead.
Please read Chocmallows post, because it’s so very true.
Yes plenty of people have large happy families with no issues whatsoever, but unless you have plenty ( & I mean plenty ) of money & help 5 plus children is extremely hard.
Take it from someone who’s been there.
I wish I’d taken better precautions to stop at 4.
But all the very best on whatever you decide

I don’t know any large families personally. All my friends and family have 1,2 or max 3. There’s a Spanish lady at school with 6 but I don’t know her think she might consider a restraining order if I marched up and started lecturing her!

Crushed, why do you wish somebody had said something to you? Would you have had less children?

I am in my 60's so my friends are mainly the same age as me so no point in having conversations about family size to them. I think most of them know how I feel though.

One friend has 4 children. Of those 4 children, one has 4 children of their own, one has 6, one has 3 and one has 1. So 14 grandchildren at present but possibly could be more in the future.

The grandchildren range in age from 22 to 1. The 22 year old already has 3 children so may well have more and, of course, all the others may well go on to have children.

Interestingly out of 3 of my nieces, 2 definitely do not want children and the other is unsure. The 2 that don't are in their 30's so unlikely to change their minds. I also have a nephew and he and his wife are in their late 30's and have no children.

No need to be facetious Swift I don't advocate marching up to strangers and lecturing them as well you can probably guess

tomtom I'm sorry that you found yourself in such a situation, that must be very tough.
I would advise OP similarly to you, my last two children were accidental, contraception failures although happily they are healthy and now much wanted.
Five children must be extremely difficult in the absence of sufficient finances, extended family input and good parental health. If you don't have all of those I wouldn't recommend it to anybody.

I just want to say thank you to the people who have large families, and raise them to be contribution members of society, your contribution to society at a time when we have failing birth rates is invaluable, especially given that we already face problems paying for our services, especially with regard to the pensions and care of people who are adults now - people like you adding human beings with their whole lives ahead of them now is how any of this stuff gets paid for. As a society we all owe you a debt of gratitude.

We don’t need more people. We need to be willing to pay more tax for our services and to change the way we live. The more people there are, the more food needs to provided somehow, the more energy needs to be produced, the more roads, schools, hospitals need to be built and the more the natural environment is disrupted. It’s not rocket science.

The best advice I can give to you to lend real life credence to your views is to discuss them openly with other adults; after all if you hold the conviction that large families truly are overwhelmingly contributing to the demise of the planet then surely you must feel compelled to get this message out there.

I’ve never yet met anyone in real life who is coming close to 5 children. I don’t actually know anyone who has more than 2. But I promise you, if I knew someone with 4 kids and they said ‘HB, I’m considering a 5th child, what are your thoughts?’ I would tell them that I think it would be an unjustifiable toll on the planet.

I’m not going to berate someone who has 5 kids already - they can hardly send a couple of them back. And I don’t, as a rule, offer unsolicited advice to anyone. But if a real life friend asked for my opinion, as OP has asked for opinions here, I would tell them truthfully what I think.

I suppose I just would have appreciated the option of considering their opinion.

No, it wouldn't have stopped me from having more than two children. I am an only child and because of this always planned to provide two siblings for my children so, for me three was always on the cards.
To be honest three seems to be pretty average. Most of my friends have three, most of my friends are one of three or four themselves so on balance it still would not have persuaded me to stop at two.

Perhaps if I was surrounded by people purposely limiting their family size I may have planned for less, who knows.

Good for you, HBS I very much hope you stick to that plan.

I would also tell them the truth if someone in real life asked my opinion on increasing family size

Why are you putting the onus on us to “get the message out” . Top of every news bulletin is climate destruction caused by man it’s not hard to make the link that producing more and more of us is not a smart idea

The message in the media is overwhelmingly focused on consumption.
As a family we consume less than many of my friends with three children, we don't holiday abroad, we run one car, are mainly vegetarian and keep our own chickens for eggs, grow our own vegetables reuse clothes, cloth nappies, no babywipes, no plastic where I can help it etc
I honestly didn't equate our family size disproportionately with destroying the planet.
It really is that simple.
I am relatively environmentally aware/responsible. It is only on MN that I am met with the opinion that actually I'm not, because family size.

Its not a no brainer, if you want us to take this seriously as a topic 'outside of MN' then yes, you probably need to discuss it.

We don’t need more people. We need to be willing to pay more tax for our services and to change the way we live. The more people there are, the more food needs to provided somehow, the more energy needs to be produced, the more roads, schools, hospitals need to be built and the more the natural environment is disrupted. It’s not rocket science.

We're well below maintenance levels in terms of population replacement, tax yields are insufficient right now, costs, debt and the elderly population are all set to increase continuously and most people can't "choose" to lose some money to pay for your geriatric care.

You're right, it's not rocket science. At the rate things are going we either have more people paying into the pot, or we start seeing the elderly and poor go unlooked after, and/or head for things like 80% tax rates and bonded labour.

Youngest of six here! My parents really were very bored of parenting when I was "older" didn't do half the activities or have any interest in me, been there done that.

This went right into adulthood.

YABU to even half consider this.

I like babies and toddlers really does not cut it, as previous PP said it's about the very very long term.

We're well below maintenance levels in terms of population replacement, tax yields are insufficient right now, costs, debt and the elderly population are all set to increase continuously and most people can't "choose" to lose some money to pay for your geriatric care.

I just do.not.understand.this.

Have you considered the distinctly perilous state of our food supply chains? Antibiotic resistance? Rising sea levels, low-lying lands at risk of going under? Declining biodiversity? The plight of bees?
Deforestation?

Having more kids so we can you know, make sure we have enough people to look after the seniors, is fucking madness.

In terms of the problem with over population, to put it bluntly, it's more to do with the fact that people aren't dying rather than people being born.

In terms of the problem with over population, to put it bluntly, it's more to do with the fact that people aren't dying rather than people being born.

I agree that the 8-->11B projection is largely owing to the ageing population, but I disagree with your point in the main because I don't think anyone should be happy with 8 billion people on the planet.

ur womb ur rules hun x dont worry about the planet lol we can just move to another one lol x

There's something to what you say there Formerbabe.
If we should be advising people to lumit family sizes to two, perhaps we should limit curative medical treatment to the under 85s?

Too far?

and I think with good nutrition and medical support it’s probably not as significant as you think

Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis I had good nutrition and the most amazing amount of medical support. I was still left mostly-housebound for the best part of a year. My case isn't the least bit unusual, even in areas with excellent healthcare.

Many women have completely trouble-free pregnancies. Many women don't. Just to take one example, it's estimated that one in every 27 pregnant women in the UK experience SPD, a condition that is acutely painful, leaves many women on crutches or in wheelchairs for the duration of their pregnancy, and can lead to separation of the pelvis. There are many, many more serious pregnancy-related conditions than just SPD. You can't predict if you are going to be one of the lucky women or the unlucky ones. There's always a risk.

ur womb ur rules hun x dont worry about the planet lol we can just move to another one lol x

Honestly, people post tripe such as this and yet still deny that there's a socioeconomic snobbery levelled at larger families

You are being perfectly reasonable.
If lots of others were having 5 I would say you were being unreasonable.
You live in a country that isn't replacing the population in numbers anywhere needed, so much so that we've reached the point where we are importing people that think six plus isn't unreasonable.

ArcheryAnnie

I'm sorry that you were so unlucky, that sounds awful and I can completely understand that pregnancy must seem like extremely risky business to you.