To have a 5th child

[Flowerflow]

I have 4 children ages 13, 9, 8 and 4 (5 in a few days), recently DP and I have been discussing have another child, he completely up for it but I'm still a little unsure. I have a few concerns like we currently live in a 4 bedroom house, oldest two share and youngest two have their own bedrooms. 8 year old is the only boy and if were to have another boy they would probably share but there would be a big age gap and DS wouldn't be impressed. That or we move to a bigger house which we might not be able to afford where we currently but would be able to if we move slightly further away. Another concern would be there'll be 5/6 between them and our current youngest so new baby might feel left out or the odd one out although not all our children are very close in age. I'm also unsure about going through pregnancy again, I've never really enjoyed it, baby, toddler stage and so I'll happily go through again but pregnancy I'm willing to go through not exactly happily though. On the other hand I'd love to have a fifth child and these concerns and problems can be worked through

CatAndFiddle

2.1 is the UN defined replacement fertility rate. Of the 200 countries in the world, 97 already have fertility rates below this and so are in population decline (excluding migration, of course).

Seriously people, fertility rate is a much longer term solution, the trend for which is already well established. We need to focus on policy changes, drastic reduction in western living standards and tech".

But it's much easier to sneer at other ordinary people with little power or influence. Actually getting the people with the resources to effect real change is a much trickier prospect. Vanity of small differences.

I don’t think people have these opinions because of “environmental concerns” really at all. It’s an odd one.

Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis

Agreed, me neither.
It has not once cropped up in any of the many conversations I've had about family size. Its odd.

Just environmental concerns for me anyway. Nothing against large families per se am one of 3 myself and loved sound of music as a kid thought the Von trapp thing looked fab fun. But remember doing population growth in human geography as a teenager and it freaked me out then and have had environmental concerns for ages

What do you think the secret nefarious reasons for our opinions that we won't reveal to internet strangers are?

I come from a large family as did one of my parents and the attitude was there long before environment became a thing. Weird stories of people who were lonely or unloved or neglected get trotted out as though only children or those with small families never experienced any of that. Concerns about finance, time, room are trotted out as though no family ever lived in cramped accommodation. It’s just odd.

The difference between telling someone pregnant with their fifth child to their face that five is too many, and telling the OP here that five is too many, is that the OP asked for our opinions. And lo, we have given them.

There are lots and lots of reasons not to have a big family, including the environment. Another is that in the very big families I have known, it's often the parents who are thrilled at having such a big family, while the kids themselves - who don't get as much parental attention as they might have in a smaller family - are often noticeably less thrilled. Plus in this case the OP seemed decidedly lukewarm about the prospect, and it was her DH who wanted it. Plus, of course, every pregnancy is a further strain on the mother's body, and it's difficult looking after your existing kids AND a newborn if your own health is borked.

A woman's body is her own, and it's not up to us either to tell any woman she should use it to produce kids or not produce kids. But if a woman asks you about the pros and cons of having a fifth kid, then it's entirely legit to answer them.

PChole

I have no idea whether they are nefarious or not, I simply believe that if environmental considerations were the overwhelming reason that people feel this way that I would have encountered the same attitude in real life.

Don't do it. 4 is plenty. think of your other kids and the expense and upheaval of adding a fifth.

What do you think my motivation is for lying on MN though? Because I've explained why in real life I'm unlikely to share my views with someone who already has a large family.

IdentifyasTired
Agree and equally as disturbed

Are you in England? If so there’s your answer

At a guess I would say that 'environmental issues' is a more noble reason than 'finding big families distasteful' or being a touch envious that other people are able to cope well with and raise happy DC in big families when you struggle to parent an only.
The reason that I cite these two opinions is because very honest friends of mine have intimated them to me.
Both are still very much my friend, even the one who stated she finds big families distasteful, because she wasn't alluding to mine, oh no! I am the exception

Still, even such candid conversations didn't throw up any hypothetical future envirommental apocalypsr which I have unnessecarily excessively? contributed to.

I realise that I haven't actually addressed the OP: have another child if it is dearly wanted and you feel able to afford the extra time and money required.
As a family of 5 you will be quite a rarity in the UK. But that's my point; average fertility rates are strongly linked with female education, female labour market prospects, prosperity etc. AVERAGE fertility rates will continue to decline as these factors increase, plateauing around 2.0. There are only a handful of countries where this is not happening. You having 5 kids will not destroy the planet, because most people do not have 5, and people ARE having less and less.

Now, what are we going to do in the next few years to prevent a catastrophic loss of biodiversity on the planet? Limit of one car per 🏠? Massive investment in public transport? Annual limit to personal air miles?

crushed those are the two that have been voiced in my presence along with a little light racism thrown in sometimes. My family is “excessive” according to this thread. The rhetoric is fairly offensive if I’m honest, which is a shame because it would have been interesting to hear from lived experience as well as theory.

And on balance I do suspect that there's a touch of class snobbery that can be conveniently veiled by touting environmental concerns.

Its true that women in lower socioeconomic groups have larger families so perhaps going for the jugular for environmental reasons is in some instances an excuse to bash the working classes, so that you can feel superior to somebody, for something.

Whilst thinking about the impact on the environment you should think about the impact on your body too. That's a lot of pregnancies. They do take a toll on the body.

Not sure I agree it’s lower class can be the very grand with larger families eg Rees mogg. Most in the middle types seem to have 2, some one and a few 3 at most. That what I’ve seen anyway

Op I bet if you said you only have 1 child this thread would of gone totally different

indeed. What a stupid post.

Well it's also true that larger families have become somewhat of a trend for the wealthy/upper classes.

The wealthy/upper classes probably dont give a fuck about what the proles on mumsnet think of their environmental impact.
Or anything else for that matter

My experience is the very rich have large families, and the very poor; and everyone in the middle has 0,1,2 or 3.

My point was that large families aren't necessarily working class families.

No, not necessarily but the majority almost certainly are.

Crushed It seems odd to attribute my views to class snobbery when you have no idea of my socio-economic background.

Insisting there must be some kind of hidden agenda when the environmental issues are very real (even if you disagree with the weight individuals should give that in their personal family planning) comes across as somewhat defensive.

If I had doubts that the OP couldn't cope with 5 kids I would have said so. I imagine the reason people haven't mentioned those sorts of issues is our lack of information about the OP upon which to base those views. That is less of an issue when discussing family size with friends.