To have a 5th child

[Flowerflow]

I have 4 children ages 13, 9, 8 and 4 (5 in a few days), recently DP and I have been discussing have another child, he completely up for it but I'm still a little unsure. I have a few concerns like we currently live in a 4 bedroom house, oldest two share and youngest two have their own bedrooms. 8 year old is the only boy and if were to have another boy they would probably share but there would be a big age gap and DS wouldn't be impressed. That or we move to a bigger house which we might not be able to afford where we currently but would be able to if we move slightly further away. Another concern would be there'll be 5/6 between them and our current youngest so new baby might feel left out or the odd one out although not all our children are very close in age. I'm also unsure about going through pregnancy again, I've never really enjoyed it, baby, toddler stage and so I'll happily go through again but pregnancy I'm willing to go through not exactly happily though. On the other hand I'd love to have a fifth child and these concerns and problems can be worked through

Whosaystwoisokbutmoreisnot

If every couple limited themselves to 2 children then there would be no net population growth as the children would eventually be replacing their parents. That's assuming that everyone is able and willing to have children. In practice due to infertility or lifestyle choices, each couple setting a maximum of 2 children will lead to a much-needed population decline. Hence why 2 is the magic number suggested by those who are broody but don't want to excessively damage the planet.

0 would be ideal, but there is a primal urge in many people to have children regardless of logical reasoning to not do so. But there is a sensible limit to this urge - a couple needs to decide what sort or world they are creating for their descendants and for others.

This is also an interesting read.

www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/12/12/16766872/overpopulation-exaggerated-concern-climate-change-world-population

Written by an agricultural economist. Lacks some balance, but he makes an interesting point about the link between decreasing fertility fates and increasing GDP per capita. In other words, the less kids you have, the more you tend to spend on them, fuelling consumption.

Do any of you ever broach this subject with your friends/acquaintances who have more than two children in real life?

As I mentioned previously absolutely nobody has ever mentioned this to me in relation to my family size. Ever.

Yet here we are on MN and everybody apparently based their family size on the basis of replacing themselves.

The point is those people 'bleating on' about their holy choices and how educated and considerate they are of the environment draw their own lines of what's acceptable and what is not. Therefore aim to educate others rather than judge because none of us are perfect but we can try our hardest to live better. Judgy hipocrasy = less respect and less voice = less positive impact.

Well it's a bit rude to say to someone once they actually have a big family. What are they meant to do with their "extra" kids, post them back?

That doesn't mean it isn't something I would (and have) take into account personally and would certainly raise with friends as part of a wider discussion.

No of course people don’t mention it in real life.

Crushedvelvetcouch

I have done, and those I know within my age bracket (mid-20s) think similarly. But I'm not going to introduce it as a topic of conversation generally, and definitely not in response to someone announcing their pregnancy. Noone I know has asked for their friend's opinion on having another child (possibly due to my age bracket).

Just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean that it isn't a common opinion

Bloomin’ hell OP, you can’t even adequately provide for your teenager to have their own room (a stage of childhood where they need privacy more than ever!) yet you’re considering adding another kid into the mix? It’s really concerning how you’ll consider moving house to make space for a new baby just because you fancy one but aren’t making the moves to get a bigger place so your children have their own space. Little kids sharing a room is fine up to a certain age but you have a teen sharing with a pre pubescent child!

New to this and off topic so I apologise haha!! Can anybody help me out??! Basically, I was with my long term partner 4 years, we have a 2 year old together and in January I found out he’d been cheating on me all over Christmas so things ended, i’ve been devastated and only just started getting back on track, I’ve since moved out with our little boy. My problem is and please don’t pass judgment because I already feel like I’ve been a complete idiot but you do stupid things when you’re heartbroken. I met someone on a night out a few weeks ago and slept with him, I’m now 4 weeks pregnant😖 the “donor” would like nothing to do with me or a potential baby which is fine, I’m a single mum as it is my biggest fear is that I still (maybe I’m stupid) get on with my ex for the sake of our little boy, we still very much co parent and have kept it amicable. This will ruin that in my opinion, I have so much going on in my mind, my son is going to grow up with a dad yet this one wouldn’t, I won’t have as much time with him no matter how much I try, I will fall out with his dad and his family and that will be detrimental to my sons relationship with them I feel, I’ll be on my own with a new born and 2 year old (3 once baby would be born), my family are going to have an opinion that I got pregnant from a stupid fumble, I do however have a house of my own with enough room, money isn’t great but I’m not struggling massively, I’ve wanted another baby for months. I’m just so torn, I haven’t told anybody, I only found out yesterday. I really don’t know if it would be selfish for either outcome (continuing the pregnancy or ending it - I’ve always been against it for personal reasons but now I’m in the situation I’m in, there’s a lot to consider) I don’t really know what I’m after other than maybe someone who’s been in a similar position, someone who’s made the decision to have a termination and how it’s impacted them - honestly! Or someone to just see it from a fresh set of eyes, I don’t know but I’m lost and I’ve been through so much already this year. Thank you and sorry again for the length of the post x

Just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean that it isn't a common opinion, it may be in your age bracket, but how many of you have ANY children, let alone larger families? In our mid-20’s many havevery polarised views and fairly limited experience or opportunity.

MagicKingdomDizzy

Whosaystwoisokbutmoreisnot

Well, you did ask.

Well aren't you lovely. Well done.

I wouldn't bring it up with a real life friend. Much like I'd never say 'shame you took your husband's name when you got married'. Can't imagine such bald honesty would do much to foster friendly relations!

Whosaystwoisokbutmoreisnot

I am. Thanks

you can’t even adequately provide for your teenager because they have to share a bedroom honestly MN is ridiculous.

Well, yes it is a bit rude I suppose.
Still, even when I was younger and friends and I were discussing planning our families, nobody ever broached the environment as a valid consideration.

Now when I see friends with their new additions and somebody pipes up with 'are you done now?' Irrespective of the answer the environment is never cited as a consideration.

Its just so incongruent, this glaring difference between apparent MN perceived attitudes and actual behaviours.

Who dictates the 'necessary' number?

Well in my opinion people in general need to have children otherwise our population will die out. So in my personal view I'd say it would be 'necessary' for most families to have one child(two would normally replace the mother and father, but we are becoming dangerously overpopulated). Obviously it's not necessary for every family to procreate if they don't want to/cannot(I'm infertile myself, I have an adopted child) but in general I'd say 1 is 'necessary'. Obviously it's not up to me to decide what is necessary, just giving my opinion.

So say we took my suggestion of 1; then more than one would be more than necessary. 5 children would be, in my opinion, excessive. I understand people's biological instinct to have children(been there with the infertility) but I don't really understand why people feel they need to have so many children or that it is somehow necessary. Necessary for what? Their happiness? What, was four not enough

I believe the use of hyperbole was intended as an insult.

How is it hyperbolic to say that 5 children is excessive?!

I think it is taco, it’s intended to other and sneer

I'm not sure how saying to have 5 children is excessive can be 'othering' anyone. Othering them from what? Everyone else? In what way has what I said othered anyone?

I think people are being incredibly defensive at what I said, which was that some people have too many children. It is my opinion(and not an uncommon one) that in today's world, where we are on the brink of disaster, that five children is too many children.

2.1 is the UN defined replacement fertility rate. Of the 200 countries in the world, 97 already have fertility rates below this and so are in population decline (excluding migration, of course).

Seriously people, fertility rate is a much longer term solution, the trend for which is already well established. We need to focus on policy changes, drastic reduction in western living standards and tech.

Actually I have told to his face a father of four that I think it's too many children. And if I met the OP in person and she asked me her question I'd say 5 is too many.

I despair at the sheer ignorance and selfishness in the world.

Mommabear118, sounds like a tough situation, so many emotions to deal with. Most important thing is to take time to figure out what it is you really want.

You'd probably be better starting a fresh thread in Chat where you will get some helpful advice. This section can be a bit of a bearpit, especially when you're in a fragile place.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat

@Mommabear118 you should start your own thread. Come out of this one into the general AIBU page and there is a button for adding a new thread.

Don't do it. The more you have, the twattier they get. I'm a 4th child, and I'm a twat. I've purposely stuck with only having my first - the least twattiest

Well Bucking I commend you on the courage of your convictions.

I only wish everyone was so forthright.

Actually I have told to his face a father of four that I think it's too many children. why? What was his response to your opinion on his family?

Do any of you ever broach this subject with your friends/acquaintances who have more than two children in real life?

I assume I'd be met with the same bollocks as on here about how I'm just as bad because I flew on a plane last year and I'm not a vegan(despite said family all flying on planes and being meat eaters, just with 5 extra people than me) I would be happy to debate with them. But I think they would be incredibly(and not surprisingly) defensive about their choices and I don't think it's worth risking a friendship over when these children have already been conceived anyway.

I disagree wholeheartedly Taco
As mentioned I'd like the chance to discuss this with somebody who holds similar opinions but who also knows me, my DH and our children.
I'm not given to defensiveness or easy to take offence so I do hope that my friends are not so disingenuous as to compliment my parenting and my children, yet harbour views such as yours.