To think that these passengers should have criminal charges brought

[HuntIdeas]

After the tragedy of the Aeroflot flight where 41 people died, it sounds like other passengers stopping to get bags out of overhead lockers might have delayed the evacuation and caused some of the deaths!

AIBU to think that the passengers who deliberately took the time to stop and get bags out of overhead lockers, delaying evacuation of passengers behind while the aircraft was on fire, should have criminal charges brought? They directly caused some deaths!

Obviously, in reality it would be difficult to prove who caused what. However, just talking about bringing charges and making it a criminal offence to retrieve baggage in emergency situations would maybe stop other passengers from doing it next time

There is actually a video of a shop going up in flames from a tiny fire caused by a discarded cigarette that was captured on CCTV. It showed how people under reacted because it was a tiny fire. But most people don't realise how quickly tiny fires turn into major infernos. That was only a small shop so everyone got out safely. But ou could see how the same in a shopping centre could have led to deaths.

In an emergency the overhead lockers should automatically ‘lock’

I undertook basic fire marshal training and I'm so glad I did as although it was the basics I learnt an important lesson.

We were shown a video of a large group of people taken into a room and the fire alarm went off. None of them moved because nobody else moved. There was a guy who was visibly very nervous but he didn't move because nobody else was. Eventually a woman left the room to go to the reception to see what was happening, the alarm had been going off for around five minutes by this point.

They showed the scenario again with different people where someone came in and told them all to leave through the emergency exit, they all got up and left immediately.

I was in McDonalds once and the fire alarm went off, I instantly stood up and looked for the nearest exit, and I noticed people who saw me and instantly did the same but I guess no one wanted to be the first.

YABU to suggest criminal charges.

YANBU to suggest that behaviours of passengers probably increased the death toll.

backinthebox thank you for your insight. I get laughed at for insisting that me and my family sit in the updated emergency position (feet tucked back) for take off and landing. I didn't know about the hand position being important so thank you for that useful information. Should it be dominant hand protected by non-dominant hand?

I've never understood the fascination with trying to get everything in handluggage. It makes passage through the airport much simpler carrying the absolute minimum.

Not occupy your mind with ‘can I just manage one small bag...’.

When queue was already moving, yes don't stop for a second to grab something. But what I actually meant, if queue was stationary and people were waiting for exit doors to open first (it was taking time!) and while waiting you had your valuable bag right next to you. Yes the instinct is probably to grab it, thinking it's not really a hazard.

I am an anxious flyer and remember exits, how to avoid smoke inhalation, I rehearse mentally how to put on oxygen mask and how to blow up vests. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE BAG HOWEVER SMALL - hasn't really filtered through to me.

Why can’t you just do what you are told?

Humans aren't 100% sheeples? I've had sobering driving lessons to reflect on this. I don't listen to my driving instructor at all when I panic, I end up doing my own thing and he had to take over a few times to correct. It's nothing to do with lack of respect etc etc.

One fact about fires is that no matter where the emergency exits are, people tend to try and exit through the way they came in. I know this was a massive factor in stadium fires and why they now fill a stadium through the exit closest to a seat allocation.

Probably less useful for airplanes, but a lot of fluid simulations have demonstrated how barriers can help - or hinder - a crush of people into a single exit. Crush being a key word as it can kill more people than fire or smoke inhalation.

Two reactions in one town centre (Brixton)
The nail bombs. A bus queue of people saw the bag at the bus stop with wires sticking out. Someone moved the bag to a nearby market pallet. Eventually someone went and got the security guard from a nearby supermarket, who came to look, and called the police. Someone actually tried to steal the brand sports bag that the bomb was in. Evacuation of the area was chaotic / ineffectual waiting for the police, the bomb went off, A child was badly hurt.

Two days after the 7/7 bombings, on a bus, the driver got out of his cab and pointed to a bag on the luggage rack and shouted 'does this bag belong to anyone? ' after a one second silence waiting for the answer every single passenger sprang to their feet and swiftly and with purpose got off the bus and got far away from it, the driver calling the police. It was lost property - but still. People's minds were focused.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_London_nail_bombings Accounts as to how people responded to suspicious looking bags.

It was 10 years or more after the London IRA bombings, people were not on high alert.

most people don't realise how quickly tiny fires turn into major infernos

You're not kidding I've watched this many a time, and even though there were wooden stands back then I still can't believe the elapsed time on the running clock's for real:

"Yes the instinct is probably to grab it, thinking it's not really a hazard"

But it IS a hazard. And calling people who do manage to follow the drill sheeples doesn't really help in developing the mindset as it is derogatory. It isn't being a sheeple to think actively about following every instruction, it is a survival strategy that is assertive and determined. They tell you about the oxygen masks, they tell you not to take bags.

And look at these idiots - standing close by, coming to get a good look, as a static caravan is blazing...that would be a static caravan with gas bottle, next to other caravans with gas bottle, and a car with a petrol engine between the flaming caravan and the onlookers. You can see that they are close enough to feel the heat because one guy reacts and moves, a bit. Other videos of the same fire show people coming to have a look. Gas bottles, gas v=cookers, gas hoses all around you, people!

www.uknip.co.uk/2019/04/21/breaking/fire-rips-through-trecco-bay-holiday-park-in-wales/

That film of the Bradford fire is terrifying.

See how although the fire is first in the one stand the smoke is funnelled along under the stand roof into the other stands right to the other end, so smoke would have started affecting them.

After one of the fires I was in the fire brigade explained to me that smoke and the air around in a hot fire doesn't meander, it pushes with huge force because of the speed with which the air is expanding. The smoke and heat come at force. See all the stuff blowing on the pitch.

Really scary.

Theres a bit on youtube that expalins the Kings Cross fire and how it rapidly acellerates from just a very small fire to an inferno in a very short space of time they tried to replicate it and succeded. Channel effect I think it was described as ,thats to to do with the way the fire went up the space between the sides of the escalator which made this channel.

When I was about 13 I was at a friend's house and some of her brother's friends were messing about with a calor gas bottle. It suddenly burst and a flame thrower appeared as the bottle itself whizzed round and round on the floor, throwing its flame as it went. I was out of that kitchen faster than a speeding bullet and ran across the road to my house screaming for my dad to get the fire extinguisher. He rushed back over with me but no real damage had been done. Everyone laughed at me for panicking but my dad said I had done the right thing.

I had the piss ripped out of me for months.

That is why it important to actually listen to the safety drill and get it imprinted in your memory so that you do it automatically.

Well, that didn't quite work, right? No-phones policy it is easy to remember - because announcement tells you to turn off and air crew will hiss if you don't. The rest is usually left to the people's will . Some people will be very diligent to remember everything, some will remember most or parts of it. Smoking is very obvious hazard and easy to remember, hand luggage is more subtle hazard and may not imprint itself on memory as much.

What do you propose to do about it then?

the fire brigade explained to me that smoke and the air around in a hot fire doesn't meander, it pushes with huge force because of the speed with which the air is expanding. The smoke and heat come at force

Yes, I also recall having that explained to me by a fire officer - it didn't seem to make sense until then, but I still think it looks surreal when you actually see it with a clock running

And STILL folk take silly risks

Safety announcements need to explain why people to do certain things.

Yes fire spreads terrifyingly fast and I am not sure there is strong awareness around it. My neighbours two doors down had to come out in their underwear in cold winter. Everything turned to charcoal in matter of minutes. Well done people for not stopping to cover themselves up.

We had visit from fire man (I am deaf so I get specialist fire alarm installed from local fire station). I did feel all the guidance and ticking box paperwork was quite feeble. I hate our locked windows which cannot be opened within seconds and then how do we jump out of bedroom windows to land on gravel two floors down?? No one says that fire spreads super fast. I convinced my husband to tackle his clutter because clutter is also key to fire spreading fast and when too much is burning in one room it can cause explosion.

If this is true I am amazed. I know it has happened on other evacuations but when a plane is on fire? One of the cabin crew said she was grabbing people by their collars to get people off asap. It took less than a minute for everyone to get off.

If someone was stopping me getting off a plane trying to get luggage which was, or could any minute be, on fire, I would not be responsible for my actions. I'd climb over the top of them if needsbe.

I meant the plane could be on fire, not the luggage, although I suppose both could be the case.

Every fire drill some people did get their bags, coats etc
I think we’re all so accustomed to regular drills and false alarms that when the alarm goes off we assume there’s no fire. We expect that we’ll have to stand outside in the cold for ages until we’re allowed back in. Or the shift or class might end while we’re outside and we won’t be able to leave if our stuff is inside. I’ve participated in hundreds of drills but never a single actual fire. I know the rules but I ignore them because the odds are vastly in favour of it not being an actual fire and I don’t want to stand out in the cold without my coat. Perhaps our culture of regular drills is actually not good if it encourages people to not trust the alarm - like the boy who cried wolf.

It should be possible to lock all the overhead bins from the flight deck in the case of an emergency.

I hate our locked windows which cannot be opened within seconds
They tell you to lock your windows and remove the key for security. But then you can’t open them in the event of a fire.

I’d punch them out of the way. No excuse for such gormless behaviour

Aye right.

Of course you would John Rambo.

I was once in a restaurant when a canister of tear gas was thrown in amongst the diners. I live in Paris and this was just after the Bataclan massacre (which was all the more real to me because I knew two young people who were caught up in it, one of whom did not survive).

I tell you I did not cover myself in glory in the way I scrambled out of that place. I just flew -- don't even know if I knocked anyone else out of the way, but certainly to my shame I did not extend so much as a helping finger to anyone else, not even my husband. It was entirely without thought.

But I did leave my handbag inside.