To think that these passengers should have criminal charges brought

[HuntIdeas]

After the tragedy of the Aeroflot flight where 41 people died, it sounds like other passengers stopping to get bags out of overhead lockers might have delayed the evacuation and caused some of the deaths!

AIBU to think that the passengers who deliberately took the time to stop and get bags out of overhead lockers, delaying evacuation of passengers behind while the aircraft was on fire, should have criminal charges brought? They directly caused some deaths!

Obviously, in reality it would be difficult to prove who caused what. However, just talking about bringing charges and making it a criminal offence to retrieve baggage in emergency situations would maybe stop other passengers from doing it next time

woollyheart

Sure - but right now the option is there for them. As I said it’s really no hassle to me either way, but given I’m working within (and well within) reasonable allowance then right now I’m happy to do it.

Although interestingly, we’ve just been away and the overhead lockers were very lightly packed (and certainly in our part of the plane it wasn’t due to under seat luggage)

My poor coat ended up 4 rows in front

They had 55 seconds to get out, I doubt it's as simple as people just opening their lockers and casually getting their bags out, 55 seconds isn't really enough time to get a bag out of a locker, or think rationally. Do we not think its sheer luck if a whole plane evacuates in that time?

Realistically none of us know how we'd act in that situation, every single person on the thread would say no I wouldnt grab my bag, I don't think theres a single person who thinks they would grab their bag in that situation. Yet obviously people did, do we think the plane was just full of twats? Or more likely panic.

We have no idea what was going on, its possible that someone was flinging bags out of the lockers and people grabbed them to get them out the way. Or it was bottle necked and so people were stopped and grabbed their bags.

People died because a plane caught fire, the airline are going to say it was people grabbing bags. Blame the passengers, it gives people hope that if a plane crashes as long as everyone behaves we will all get out. When in reality that's not true. I know it's really horrible to think, but the people didn't get out because they didn't have time to get everyone out.

Hand baggage in itself does not slow down security. Inefficient security procedures slows down security as does a lack of security staff.

Plus the "punishment" factor of the security staff deliberately making you wait for them to make a big song and dance about opening your hand luggage and showing you why it was pulled, and then giving you a lengthy "talk" about what you can and can't put through. I've found Manchester security staff are worst for this. Only a couple of weeks ago, some poor bloke was being given a right telling off for leaving his electronic inhaler in his hand luggage - the security oaf was having none of it when the poor guy kept pointing out that the signage/instructions didn't say anything about inhalers - the oaf just kept repeating they regard them the same as e-cigarettes - even though the signage didn't say that!

Surely you have to have an inhaler with you at all times?

RTFT and find out

I’ve read the full thread and whilst I understand you lost a loved one as a result of an plane crash I don’t understand why you felt the need to report the thread.

It’s like me saying let’s not have any threads about this kind of thing because my children are flight deck and cabin crew and it scares the life out of me at times. Or let’s not have any mention of people being the victims of war because my cousin was shot dead in a war situation 30 odd years ago whilst driving her children to school.

Fair enough, you are entitled to disagree, just as anyone is entitled to report a thread or post. MN are the arbiters and if they let it stand then it will.

Fair enough, you are entitled to disagree, just as anyone is entitled to report a thread or post. MN are the arbiters and if they let it stand then it will

If industry professionals voice the same opinion as the OP on their professional forums then I think there’s a valid point to be made.

Of course people will tend to panic. That is why it important to actually listen to the safety drill and get it imprinted in your memory so that you do it automatically.

"Emergencies don't work like that unfortunately!"

I have been in two actual fires in public buildings and one evacuation where there was an actual bomb. In the building, staff and public did follow the very clear directions of the staff and did exactly what they had been trained to do. No casualties.

I also once eavesdropped a conference on air passenger safety (had to wait outside for another meeting in the room opposite) and the message was very clear - in whatever circumstances people who were frequent business flyers (even when on family holidays) had better evacuation rates than non-frequent fliers because they were not used to hearing the safety drill so often. I know this goes against our anecdotal experience that we mostly take no notice, but this was a finding in a very long and detailed research paper being delivered.

Obviously I am not saying that following the drill is a magic carpet to survival - it clearly isn't.
Nor am I blaming people for panicking.
But there are ways to influence our behaviour and the training drills for emergency services. armed forces, police etc are geared towards training overcoming panic.

I agree drills are essential. The amazing Rick Rescorla saved the majority of Morgan Stanley's employees during the WTC attacks in part because he'd made them practice over and over again evacuating from the tower, and timed them and did what he could to improve the evacuation process. He led them to safety too. losing his life in the process but the majority lived because of him and his insistence on preparing for the worst.

RattyTat - I make our organisation have timed evacuation drills, and we log the relative times and follow up what caused faster or slower evacuation.

We do it with smoke machines in different parts of the building, too.

I read reports that:

• while plane was still running on runaway - people started to jump out of seats already, which means waiting in cramped settings for inflatable slide to pop out - you have time to grab your most important bag, surely?

• I have read Russian people complaining about Aeroflot crew being lax in general about people leaving luggages on seats/next to aisle/floor.

• stewardesses grabbed people by collar and pushed them whoever was too slow

That's very clever, TheRedBarrows. I hope that you never have to find out how an evacuation would work in genuine emergency but if so all that hard work and drills should really pay off. More companies should do similar.

I was in a shopping centre when the fire alarm went off. Fortunately it was nothing serious or was a practice alarm. What was interesting is that no one tried to exit via the emergency exits until my DH and I went through one. Once we went, lots of people followed.

“you have time to grab your most important bag, surely?l”

And you are specifically told not to take bags on the inflatable. A bag falling on someone else’s head? Catching and holding you up on the slide? Strangling you? They tell you to take your shoes off, uttung your bag down to undo laces = trip hazard for others.

It’s a life or death situation. Why can’t you just do what you are told? And deviate if it is obvious that an alternative escape is available. Not occupy your mind with ‘can I just manage one small bag...’.

It is a mindset.

Yes it would be much safer if passengers were banned from taking anything other than a coat and tiny bag on

So you think that someone travelling with thousands of pounds worth of business equipment should check in in do you? How is anyone going to get insurance for that?

I guess no one ever knows how they'd react in an emergency but i hope i wouldn't be stopping to pick anything up!

I was in Morrisons once and the fire alarm went off. I watched in amazement as people started walking back to the entrance at the other end of the store.

I kicked the emergency door that was across from me open, breaking the security seal and got out that way.

Probably better I don't mention my views on the people that took their fucking trolleys with them.

the security oaf was having none of it when the poor guy kept pointing out that the signage/instructions didn't say anything about inhalers - the oaf just kept repeating they regard them the same as e-cigarettes - even though the signage didn't say that!

Damn those security oafs, not like there's been a terror attack in Manchester ever....

If the embarrassment factor bothers you please bear in mind that terrorists do practice hostile recconosance and are put off by alert police/security personnel being thorough.

People generally in cases of fire under react, they do not panic. So yes going to a normal exit rather than through an emergency exit is what I would expect.
In the 60's a lot of people died in a fire in a Woolworths. Research found that it was mainly people in the cafe who had queued to pay before leaving.
People do not behave this way because they are stupid. They behave this way because they do not see the risks and go into automatic mode.

It is a mindset

And this key point is the basis of the claim that chances of surviving a disaster largely depend on ones own actions during the first few second or minutes. It beggars belief that some might be more concerned with retrieving a bag than getting the hell out of there, just as it's inconceivable that the guy who allegedly blocked others was prioritising a refund, but sadly this is what happens

There won't be any "criminal charges" brought against passengers, since it's probably now impossible to prove who did what ... and some have even suggested that, this being Russia, the main priority will be to cover up whatever fault on the airline's part may have contributed to the deaths

Going back quite a few years, but I studied (inky undergrad level) behaviour in fires. One of the lecturers had been involved in mapping the position of bodies of people who died in the King’s Cross underground fire. IIRC, one person died needlessly - they mapped his usual route, and he walked PAST the exit, to get to a phone to call home to say not to worry about the news. He died (smoke inhalation I think) on his way back to the exit he had already passed.
As a previous poster said - people can under react.

I remember the key learning from the reading we did at the time... that actually, behaving “normally” on autopilot can be sensible. Just it backfire. So - head backwards to the exit you KNOW - or push the emergency door that could lead to a locked staircase, for all you know. Sometimes, the brain chooses the familiar not through panic or stupidity, just a risk assessment that was incorrect in hindsight.

Have you ever been in a cinema where you exit through the emergency doors instead of going back through the main building? That was a recommendation many years ago after a bad fire - which recognises that people head for familiar exits.

You can’t judge these people en masse.

'People generally in cases of fire under react, they do not panic.'

That's fascinating and the opposite of what I would have expected.

I didn't realise that is why our cinema makes people exit through emergency exits, but it makes sense.
I also know in the Kings Cross fire that some people had pushed past staff trying to stop people getting on to the platform. They were more worried about being late to wherever they were going.

Most people have never been in a real emergency. They don't know how they would react.
I remember being in a bomb scare in a main train station. I shuffled out with everyone else. My work colleague disappeared. She had pushed through and got out very quickly. She was also from N Ireland and been in bomb scares before where a bomb had went off. She took it far more seriously than the rest of us actually did.