To think that these passengers should have criminal charges brought

[HuntIdeas]

After the tragedy of the Aeroflot flight where 41 people died, it sounds like other passengers stopping to get bags out of overhead lockers might have delayed the evacuation and caused some of the deaths!

AIBU to think that the passengers who deliberately took the time to stop and get bags out of overhead lockers, delaying evacuation of passengers behind while the aircraft was on fire, should have criminal charges brought? They directly caused some deaths!

Obviously, in reality it would be difficult to prove who caused what. However, just talking about bringing charges and making it a criminal offence to retrieve baggage in emergency situations would maybe stop other passengers from doing it next time

You can think what you like but it has been proved over and over again that people will often take luggage no matter how dire a situation. People will also delay leaving or bypass exits that would lead them to safety in favour of a door they'd previously entered through, or even not attempt to exit at all. As for people not endangering themselves there's footage of a man in the Bradford fire who was in flames yet wandering around in an apparent daze.

From The Unthinkable again, sorry but needs must.

Describing the WTC attack "After the plane hit the building, Zedeno told me, she wanted nothing so much as to stay. Like her I was perplexed by this reaction.Shouldn't a primal, survival instinct have kicked in, propelling her to the door? I wondered if Zedeno was unusual. So I went to the National Fire Academy to find out more. The instructors at the school,.. are veteran firefighters who have witnessed just about every conceivable form of human behaviour in fire.

..."When I told him about Zedeno, he told me that he saw this curious indifference all the time. ...His station house would get dispatched to a bar, he would walk into the establishment and see smoke. But he would also see customers sitting at the bar nursing their beers. "We would say "Looks like there's a fire here," he says. He'd ask the customers if they felt like evacuating. They would say"No, we'll be just fine".

Passengers and 4 cabin crew died as they were stuck behind passengers retrieving their hand baggage . The law needs to change to prosecute those impeding an evacuation. I’ve been cabin crew for over 20 years and passengers need to take emergency evacuation procedures seriously and stop being so selfish .

I don’t know much about the story but if you did delay a moment to grab a bag containing essential meds - in my family this could be Warfrin heart tabs for mum or an Eoupen for DS. You would be grabbing stuff to save the lives of your family - this doesn’t mean that you are, in that moment if panic, aware that you are delaying the exit if others. If we had to evacuate anywhere, I would want those meds, if I had hindsight and calm thought to know it would potentially cause the death of another then I would reluctantly leave them and make it a priority to replace the same day. But in a panic, my instinct would, I think, be to grab those lifesaving meds. Who knows?
You weren’t there, you don’t, and can’t know the full details, YABU.

Also "One of the few people who has extensively analysed behaviour at the Trade Center in both 1993 and 2001 is Guylene Proulx at Canada's National Research Council. And what she saw fit with Zedeno's memory exactly. "Actual human behaviour in fires is somewhat different from the 'panic' scenario. What is regularly observed is a lethargic response," she wrote in a 2002 article in the journal Fire Protection Engineering. "People are often cool during fires, ignoring or delaying their response."

@Backinthebox
IMO the amount of baggage people are allowed to take into the cabin should be seriously curtailed.

Blame the greedy airlines. I have been taking intercontinental flights regularly for 30+ years. In the old days two checked bags were standard and you could only take a small handbag as carry-on. Now you get one checked bag (or none on some airlines) as standard but are allowed to take a wheelie case on board. The airlines have to hire less luggage handling staff and the passengers' comfort is compromised as you have to fight to get an overhead bin so end up keeping your luggage under the seat where your feet are supposed to go!

TigerTooth surely then the learning is to keep essential meds/documents in a small bag that can be stashed in the seat pocket and instantly grabbable then; rather than accept that your need to get essential meds from the overhead locker will lead to the deaths of others?

I’ve done this for a couple of years now, whenever I travel - passport, documents, wallet, phone and charger are always kept on me rather in a bag away from my control

The posts about human psychology are really interesting to read. I sometimes wonder whether a contributing factor is that, certainly in the developed world, we have such a strong (usually not false) sense of security?

What I mean is that we live lives generally safe from major disasters, war, natural disaster. Everything is heavily regulated and legislated, we have good infrastructure, modern medicine, stable governments, the safety net of the welfare state etc and I sometimes think that being so used to all this makes us feel as though terrible things can't happen to us. So I wonder if, when we find ourselves in the midst of impending doom, it seems so inconceivable that we're just not able to process it or our so called instinct doesn't kick in?

There is so much research around how people behave in emergencies. Systems need to be designed in response to that, rather than expecting behaviour to change.

Tigertooth, the difference is you can get access to more meds, you are only going to get one chance to get out of a burning plane

Yes but people do not think clearly in an emergency. I can imagine having the same thoughts that if I was thinking clearly I would know I was being ridiculous.
It used to be that every airline for economy passengers let you check into the hold 1 large and 1 small case included in the ticket price. And you were only allowed to take onboard duty free and a tiny bag of things for the flight.

Whereistheglove
Which is exactly what I said at the end of my post.

Dyrne
Yes prob a good idea - I’ve just never anticipated being in a situation where I couldn’t just reach up and get it.

A bumbag would be a good place to keep meds etc.

TigerTooth In fairness it’s only in the last couple of years that i’ve really thought about it - more from a POV of thinking it’d be a pain to be stuck in a foreign country with no passport, documents, wallet etc. plus putting loose stuff in the seat pocket has led me to leave stuff behind on several occasions

I’d highly recommend getting a soft bag that is pre-packed in your carry on that you can pull out when you get on the plane and keep with you. Such a load off my mind! plus I can keep chocolate in it

I wear combat trousers when I travel - lots of big pockets which fit my keys, kindle, purse and passport. Everything else goes in a small bag under the seat in front, but if I have to evacuate I have the essentials already on me.

I also always wear trainers or lace up flats. Practical footwear which won't hold me up if I need to move in a hurry. I am terrified of flying, hence why I prepare myself for potential evacuations!

When the airline I worked for had a crashed aircraft I learned from what happened to always have my mobile and car keys in my pocket for landing.

Until you've been in an emergency, you cannot possibly say how you would react.

I would say that I'm a practical, rational person.

Until I was in a car accident where my vehicle ended up halfway down a motorway embankment.
What did I do once the car had stabilised? Got my purse, keys and phone and stuffed them down my jumper.
My mind thought it best to get my essentials so that my family could come and get me.

The bottom line is that nothing is irreplaceable and though I always board an aircraft with just a small handbag nothing said on this thread will make me change that. I suspect that in the event of an crash survivors would be well taken care of by relevant authorities and things like medication and passports would be dealt with.

My mother’s luggage was once lost and with 24 hours the airline had the relevant meds sent to us. It wasn’t a problem.

I pay attention to the safety talks because my children have told me to and I always plan my escape route as soon as I board the aircraft but truth be told having survived one emergency evacuation from an aircraft when the landing gear failed I don’t really dwell on what ifs. What will be will be v

Sorry. I posted instead of reviewing my post.

Sure passengers would be told NOT to attempt to r etrieve items from overhead lockers as part of the evacuation process. It's so sad we seem to cherish our possessions than we do the lives of others

@Jellybabessavelives I think you’re a genius! Such a simple solution which would probably solve a who,e load of issues

Hardly. They’ve been talking about this for a long time, both in relation to this, but also every time this happens. And each time it is pretty much debunked as a bad idea.

@Nanamilly as a regular business flyer it's not about whether I want to travel light but that my laptop can't go in the hold. It's on the list of stuff that has to go in the cabin

But.... I have a smallish laptop rucksack, it fits under the seat on front and I keep my phone, keys, purse and passport on my person. My clothes, washbsg etc are in a case in the hold, I'm fed up of about half the flights i go on being delayed because of shenanigans about cabin baggage. Too many bags, too big bags, someone having a meltdown because their bag is at the other end of the plane. But the damn thing in the hold !!! The airlines have caused this problem by being greedy.

Also, given according to the video I saw on the news the plane was on fire before it had come to a halt I do wonder if anything would have made any difference to the outcome for the passengers at the rear of the aircraft.

There is talk by people outside the industry that having overhead lockers that automatically locked in the case of a fire would be a good idea, or lockers that could be locked by flight crew as part of their evacuation drill. There are lots of reasons why these ideas are not the best ones.

Firstly, we have several cases each year of items in lockers actually being the cause of the fire. With the rise in the number of devices with lithium batteries in them (ie virtually all laptops, tablets and phones these days) there is a rise in the risk of fire. If the fire was actually locked inside an overhead locker it would cause delays in firefighting. Whilst in the case of a huge fire such as the Aeroflot situation the only fire fighting should be done by the fire brigade, cabin crew and flight crew are trained in basic fire fighting so that if a fire is discovered on board during flight they can carry out initial fire prevention actions. It would be foolish to assume they can wait till they are on the ground for the fire brigade to turn up 9they might be mid atlantic) and it would be foolish also to have an auto-locking system that locks a fire in. Any delay could be disastrous.

Secondly, adding another item to the flight crew evacuation check list - this checklist is already pared down to the minimum number of actions to make the aircraft safe to evacuate and then get the hell out of there. We are trained to switch off running engines (don't want passengers jumping into live engines!) make sure the emergency exit lights are on, tell ATC, then get out ourselves. Adding superfluous items to the list because the airline doesn't limit hand baggage and passengers can't be trusted to leave their bags behind again adds potential for delay and error. This checklist must be left with the absolute bare minimum on it. The other issue is it wouldn't matter if it was part of the pilot checks if passengers are standing up before the aircraft has stopped to retrieve bags. They would still be getting their bags.

Thirdly, if lockers auto locked, you would still get passengers trying to get their bags out and holding up evacuation. If the default reactions are to behave irrationally and try and get bags, they will still try to do this and fail. Passengers would still be able to get the bags out from under the chair in front and drop those down the slides, so the potential for injury to passengers below would still be there too.

The thing is that if it's an acknowledge fact that passengers will try to retrieve their bags even in a burning plane, all chance for that to happen needs to be removed. And the only way I can see for that to happen is to limit carry on baggage.

Most crew btw have a 'grab bag' that they keep beside them during take off and landing which has car keys, passport, phone, medication (and licence for pilots.) Nothing else. EVERYTHING else can be replaced. Even the things in a grab bag can be replaced if it comes down to your stuff or your life.

Also, people blaming the airlines, security staff, baggage handlers, etc - they are there to serve you. Remember that at an airport the single biggest group of people are the passengers. Any response that removes all responsibility from passengers because 'its the greedy airlines,' 'blame the security oafs,' 'baggage handlers and police might loot your bags' and other such reasons as I have seen on this thread need to give their heads a wobble. Each time you are a passenger you have a choice as to how much stuff you take, how you pack it and how you transport it. It's not someone else's fault if a passenger chooses to take their whole luggage into the cabin then tries to retrieve it in a fire. The choices are directed by outside forces but made by the passenger.