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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that these passengers should have criminal charges brought

290 replies

HuntIdeas · 09/05/2019 08:04

After the tragedy of the Aeroflot flight where 41 people died, it sounds like other passengers stopping to get bags out of overhead lockers might have delayed the evacuation and caused some of the deaths!

AIBU to think that the passengers who deliberately took the time to stop and get bags out of overhead lockers, delaying evacuation of passengers behind while the aircraft was on fire, should have criminal charges brought? They directly caused some deaths!

Obviously, in reality it would be difficult to prove who caused what. However, just talking about bringing charges and making it a criminal offence to retrieve baggage in emergency situations would maybe stop other passengers from doing it next time

OP posts:
RantyAnty · 09/05/2019 10:09

As small as the planes are these days and people are slow, surprised as many got off safely as they did.

floribunda18 · 09/05/2019 10:13

Utterly fucking ridiculous, OP. No-one knows how they would behave in an extreme emergency. It's not their fault and it's fucking awful of you to even think that.

Aimily · 09/05/2019 10:15

I don't know how I'd react but I'm not sure that I'd be calm or rational... You can't blame people for primal instinct, so yes I think criminal charges would be too far.

Happyspud · 09/05/2019 10:17

OP you have no clue how you’d react. Research has shown people doing unbelievable mental gymnastics in the face of death, even to the point of letting themselves burn to death with an exit right beside them (read about the fire in the pachinko place in Japan). The psychology of an emergency is very complex. People actually do what they can to convince themselves there is no emergency. I suspect this is what those people were doing. Focusing in on ‘what I should do next. Stay calm. Get bag. Get out’. I bet you’d be surprised how you’d react in that same situation.

floribunda18 · 09/05/2019 10:18

I've reported the thread.

AllTheCakes · 09/05/2019 10:18

If the airlines stopped charging so much to put luggage in the hold, there would be a lot less cabin bags to worry about!

If you observe passengers boarding a flight, it’s amazing how many of them start faffing and retrieving items from their bags whilst blocking the aisle to the 100 or so people behind them trying to board. Some are completely oblivious, some just don’t care. I don’t think you can expect better of some people in an emergency when they lack common sense in a normal situation!

llangennith · 09/05/2019 10:21

floribunda18 Why have you reported it?
I haven't commented but have read all the comments and think it's a good topic for discussion.

floribunda18 · 09/05/2019 10:27

I think it's really offensive to suggest the survivors caused the tragedy. Imagine if they, or their familes read this. Or even the families of those who were killed. What caused the tragedy was the plane being on fire, end of story, and the investigation as to the cause will centre solely around that.

I admit it touches a raw nerve as a family member was killed in a plane crash 15 years ago, where half of the passengers survived. No doubt he went back for his fucking bag. Or he was just bloody unlucky and in the wrong place at the wrong time, you decide.

Happyspud · 09/05/2019 10:27

Huh? Why have you reported it?

Backinthebox · 09/05/2019 10:29

Airline pilot here. You'll possibly have noticed me ranting away on threads in the past about hand baggage, and here's another rant as this is something that affects me daily at work.

IMO the amount of baggage people are allowed to take into the cabin should be seriously curtailed. There have now been numerous cases of crashing and burning aircraft where people have stopped to grab their bags, sometimes very large and unwieldy bags, and slowed down the evacuation. As flight crew we have watched these incredulously, and still cannot believe that passengers are allowed to take so much unnecessary stuff into the cabin with them. I vividly remember watching the Las Vegas BA aircraft fire - I was under training onto a new aircraft type, the type that was on fire, and we had just arrived in the States after a training sector. Me, the captain and the trainer went down to the bar for buffalo wings and a pint and the TV in the bar was playing live footage from a passenger's phone as the evacuation was actually taking place. The first thing all of us said was 'Fucckkkk!!!!' and then the next thing was to comment on the ridiculous amount of luggage that passengers were jumping down the slide with. Similarly large amounts of baggage was taken off in the Emirates evacuation. We commented at the time that this would eventually lead to deaths, and tragically it has.

There needs to be a wholesale change in the way that people think about air travel. These days tickets to travel across countries are often cheaper by air than by rail. People are encouraged to think of aircraft as being like a big bus. But they aren't. When you travel somewhere by air, you are travelling in a metal tube pressurised to up to 9 times the outside air pressure, loaded with up to 120000kg of aviation fuel. It needs to reach speeds of up to 180mph on the ground in order to take off and travels through the air at speeds of up to 700mph.

Hand baggage slows every bit of an airport down - huge queues at security, long slow boarding and disembarkation while everyone tries to shoehorn their bag in the locker, because people have got everything they think they need for a 2 week holiday in Marbella in a wheelie bag in order to avoid a hold baggage fee or because they want the extra 15 minutes that they feel is wasted waiting by the baggage carousel. Everyone has a story about the time an airline lost their or their friend's bag, but rarely is it the case that it is the end of the world. Usually the airline gives you a payout to buy yourself clothing and toiletries to last you till your bag turns up a day or two later. I've been travelling professionally and as a passenger for over 20 years and only had 2 bags lost out of up to 26 flights a month for those 20+ years. And no, they don't make a more special effort not to lose crew bags - they make a special effort not to lose anyone's bags and when they do it's an accident - lost bags cost the airline lots of money and they'd really rather everyone's bags just got to where they were supposed to be.

Look at any forum and you'll find threads started by people who are wondering about just how much hand baggage they can get away with, and how to cram it on. On MN people proudly boast about how much hand baggage they can take into the cabin. On the skiing forums I go on people are discussing how to get their ski boots on as hand luggage. What about their priceless violins, their wedding dresses, their special expensive pram, the list goes on. None of it NEEDS to be in the cabin, yet people would argue it is too precious to them to put it in the hold.

Which brings me to to a thought on human behaviour. many posters on this thread already have said that in an emergency situation, people don't always behave rationally. If that is the case, and they can be forgiven for behaving irrationally and grabbing their bags, surely it's not too much of a logic leap to suggest the choice to take their bags on board should be removed? No wheelie bag overhead = no one trying to fumble for their suitcase in an evacuation. We keep relying on passengers to behave like grown ups, but time and time again the travelling public prove that on the whole they behave like they left their brain behind when they turn up at the airport and an emergency does not improve their mental faculties.

British Airways in 2015, American Airlines in 2016, Delta Airways and Emirates also in 2016. All with very detailed photos and video footage of passengers jumping down evacuation slides with armfuls of luggage while the plane burned behind them.

If the passengers won't or can't change their behaviour I think it inevitable that it will be changed for them.

HuntIdeas · 09/05/2019 10:38

Great post @Backinthebox

I agree that they should remove any space for cabin baggage at all - noone needs to take a big bigger than a handbag on board (with enough room for passport, wallet, phone and possibly a book / snacks for the journey)

OP posts:
MarthasGinYard · 09/05/2019 10:39

BITB

Agree completely

I remember the first few days/weeks flying post 9/11

Obvious knee jerk procedures with baggage and pax were allowed just one small see through carrier bag as carry on.

Disembarkation and boarding were an absolute dream.

Backinthebox · 09/05/2019 10:42

Floribunda, I have great sympathy for anyone in a crash or the relatives of victims but I am afraid you are wrong. Every last scrap of information about this incident will be raked over to see what can be learnt from it. Sometimes passengers die and nothing could be done about it. Sometimes passengers die and something COULD be done about it. In aviation we have one of the highest levels of safety protocols in any industry or profession as a result of a long tradition of what we call a Just Culture (ie allowing crews and other staff to admit their actions without criticism if it will lead to future improvements in safety) and thorough investigation by impartial expert bodies.

If the way passengers behave in an emergency evacuation is leading to the deaths of other passengers you can be sure that will be investigated and evaluated. Action will be taken to change things at all levels in order to improve future outcomes. A very well know (in the industry) example of this was the Kegworth Disaster in 1989 where many passengers survived the initial crash but did not survive the subsequent fire. In this case it was found that they had injuries to their hands and legs that prevented them from evacuating the aircraft. Most of the passengers had braced the way they had been told to but it became apparent that the old brace position (legs in front of you rather than tucked under, hands with fingers laced over the back of your head rather than one hand on top of the other) caused injury. The whole industry learned from the very detail investigation of passenger behaviour, injury and death in this crash. The investigation of the cause of the crash too was detail and taught the industry a lot. The crash was caused by pilot error, but after investigation it was found that the training the pilots had received had not equipped them to deal with the situation presented to them, and training protocols were designed to improve things. If this had been the only investigation though, and passenger behaviour had not been studied, so many valuable lessons would not have been learnt. No one blames either the survivors or the victims, but they will be investigated nonetheless.

TooStressyTooMessy · 09/05/2019 10:43

Thanks for your post Backinthebox. It has really made me think about making sure not to take too much as hand luggage. I don’t take loads on anyway but I could probably take less. Perhaps that should have been obvious to me before but, as I hope this thread is illustrating, the obvious isn’t always obvious to people.

JacquesHammer · 09/05/2019 10:46

I accidentally ended wearing a small cross body bag for a recent flight. It ended up under my hoody and I couldn't be bothered to fight my hoody off for a short haul flight.

I think in future I will do the same, just to ensure I'm at least able to take my DD's inhalers in the event of an evacuation.

clairemcnam · 09/05/2019 10:48

Yes it would be much safer if passengers were banned from taking anything other than a coat and tiny bag on. Get rid of overhead lockers. In some crashes overhead lockers have opened and luggage has fallen on passengers fatally injuring them.

DGRossetti · 09/05/2019 10:50

If the passengers won't or can't change their behaviour I think it inevitable that it will be changed for them.

At the risk of being cynical, tragedies only happen rarely, whereas an airline needs to make money every day ....

Backinthebox · 09/05/2019 10:53

When I travel as a passenger, I take a small bag with my passport and travel documents such as staff ID, insurance and EHIC cards, car hire and hotel details, also my phone, a Kindle, a lip balm, and that's it. Even for a flight to Australia. If a flight is long enough to get hungry there will be food on the plane. If a flight is short enough for there not to be food on, I probably can avoid being hungry by planning to eat before or after the flight. A long flight will have movies, a short flight my Kindle will entertain me.

The most content passengers I see are the ones who come on board with very little and look on the flight as a time to relax. You can't do anything else till you get there anyway. There is a reason people with problems are described as having 'baggage.' Too much of either kind is never good.

JacquesHammer · 09/05/2019 10:55

Yes it would be much safer if passengers were banned from taking anything other than a coat and tiny bag on

Not going to work for business travellers or travelling with small children for a start?

What WOULD be better is reducing the weight limit for hand luggage for a start and charging anyone who exceeds that.

5foot5 · 09/05/2019 10:56

I agree that nobody knows how they would react in an emergency. However, I thought it would be part of the cabin crew's job to ensure people didn't dick about getting bags.

We know someone who used to be cabin crew and she said that an important part of the training was to get people from an aeroplane quickly. In that situation you are supposed to stop being polite and nice and just bundle them out as fast as possible. If that means screaming in someone's face to get moving and pushing dithering old ladies down the inflatable ramp then that is what you do. Poor old granny might break her hip by being pushed out unceremoniously but if that saves her and everybody behind her being trapped on a burning aeroplane then that is what you do.

TooStressyTooMessy · 09/05/2019 10:58

Yes, to be fair, toddlers certainly do not view the flight as time to relax and you need to do some pretty active parenting on flights with small children. I would not manage without stuff to entertain my kids etc. Certainly I will think about taking less though.

Backinthebox · 09/05/2019 11:00

Cabin crew are trained to get passengers out quickly. I've worked with cabin crew who were on the Las Vegas flight and apparently they had to deal with complaints afterwards from passengers who had felt they were not polite enough and shoved them down the slides while yelling at them. I believe there is an interview with a passenger on the Aeroflot flight who complained that Aeroflot were rude. Sometimes you just can't win.

Ohmygoodness101 · 09/05/2019 11:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

clairemcnam · 09/05/2019 11:06

jacques Business travellers do not need to take a lot on the plane, neither do parents. Some stuff yes, but not lots.

MarthasGinYard · 09/05/2019 11:07

Business travellers generally take very little IME usually a laptop bag that's it.

After well over 20 years in the industry, I'm still just occasionally stunned at the amount and size of bags which appear at the door.

Even travellers with small dc. You only need essentials for the cabin.

It gets ridiculous

I take bag containing kindle, travel docs and small bottles bag if I'm on a long one containing lip balm eye drops and hand san.

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