To think that these passengers should have criminal charges brought

[HuntIdeas]

After the tragedy of the Aeroflot flight where 41 people died, it sounds like other passengers stopping to get bags out of overhead lockers might have delayed the evacuation and caused some of the deaths!

AIBU to think that the passengers who deliberately took the time to stop and get bags out of overhead lockers, delaying evacuation of passengers behind while the aircraft was on fire, should have criminal charges brought? They directly caused some deaths!

Obviously, in reality it would be difficult to prove who caused what. However, just talking about bringing charges and making it a criminal offence to retrieve baggage in emergency situations would maybe stop other passengers from doing it next time

I read a book written by someone who'd survived on Everest when 2 of their companions died and suffered survival guilt. It was sobering reading. He interviewed all sorts of survivors and air crash investigators and his conclusion was to have the best chance of surviving:

Be a man
Be large
be aggressive
Be selfish
Have no dependants with you (or abandon them)

When I watched the footage of the Japanese Tsunami, The Costa Conchorda disaster and other recent tragic events I think he is absolutely right.

None of the people bleating on about how selfish/horrible/inconsiderate these people are know how they would react in the same situation.

It's the reason schools have fire drills, why aircraft staff have to practise emergency evacuations and such, so that they learn to override their instincts and work calmly and professionally. It's also why we teach first aid - so people learn not just the practical things, but how to react calmly and do things properly and safely.

But passengers are not trained professionals and as such, are liable to panic and stress and worry and get upset. They won't have had the practises and they won't know what's happening. They will be worried about their loved ones. Maybe they went onto autopilot and grabbed their luggage because that's what you do when you leave a plane (like the survivors of 9/11 are said to have gathered their things before fleeing). Maybe they were waiting for people in front to move and did something to distract themselves.

You don't know because you weren't there - just be thankful you weren't in a life/death situation like that and didn't have to choose.

Daisydoesnt you'd watch other people do it, see/,remember that it's futile and everyone rush off.

Daisydoesnt you'd watch other people do it, see/,remember that it's futile and everyone rush off.

Not necessarily. People often don't behave rationally in emergencies. People run into burning buildings to retrieve belongings. One man's dog jumped into a freezing river - he jumped in to save his dog - he died and the dog survived perfectly unbothered by the whole situation. His instinct was to save his dog - not thinking that actually dogs are probably much better at swimming and escaping freezing rivers than humans are.

I imagined they panicked, some people are wonderful in an emergency, some people go into auto pilot.

This. I remember people saying the same a few years ago when a plane had to evacuate and there was footage of people coming down the chute thing with these bloody stupid trolley cases. I guess they just panic and don’t think rationally.

'how is them KNOWING the overhead bins are locked going to stop them from trying to open them? Locking the overhead bins will only make matters worse, some people will still try to get their luggage out, even if they are locked and can't be opened.'

Agree

Also speaking as Cabin crew this just would not work.

The passengers should never have been put in that position in the first place.
There are many questions as to why the pilots took off in adverse weather, didn’t divert around the worst of the storm, didn’t abort the landing, circle and ditch fuel before making a second attempt, etc.
Planes are designed to withstand lighting strikes - they’re regularly hit with no fatal consequences.
To blame the passengers for deaths that are more likely down to pilot error is rather missing the issue. And yes, as PPs have said, many people do not act rationally in emergencies.

That’s a really good point Daisy.

I would say they've already suffered enough quite frankly. You have no idea how you might behave in an emergency situation until you've experienced it. People do weird things.

"you'd watch other people do it, see/,remember that it's futile and everyone rush off."

And in the case of the Moscow crash, it's those few seconds when another person could have survived.

In fact the reaction to this event illustrates how society and the media focus on blame, because it is easy to blame ‘bad people’ rather than understanding that people are human and focus on how to improve systems to learn from things and try to reduce risk. Ironically the airline industry is usually one of the best for a safety culture and learning from incidents.

“If you had a spare 20 seconds not being able to go anywhere, wouldn't you be tempted to use that time to get a small bag out?”

No I fucking wouldn’t.
The safety drill is 100% clear: do not take luggage / bags.
It isn’t just the time it takes getting it out.
It’s the potential blocking of the steps, the speed at which you can move down the steps with a bag.
The possibility of dropping it and causing a blockage or trip hazard in the rush
Needing both hands free to escape fast.

Of course people will tend to panic. That is why it important to actually listen to the safety drill and get it imprinted in your memory so that you do it automatically.

Babdoc

Agree

Wasn't going to add this to the mix, but those are my thoughts and the view of many I've discussed this with.

And in the case of the Moscow crash, it's those few seconds when another person could have survived.

But would it take more or less time than people actually getting their bags? And would herd mentality behind them mean those behind would learn from those infront and not waste time even trying?

Far, far too much cabin baggage now allowed. It used to be just handbag and coat but now even people with checked bags insist on an additional wheelie case.

Of course people will tend to panic. That is why it important to actually listen to the safety drill and get it imprinted in your memory so that you do it automatically.

Emergencies don't work like that unfortunately!

Most humans are remarkably bad in emergency situations. I had to write up a load of case studies for work. Nearly every incident I looked at was made worse by people behaving as though nothing untoward was happening. Whilst all hell was breaking lose around them.

Im no better, like a pp i tried to go back into a wrecked car in an unsafe situation to get the keys. The damn thing was on its roof in a ditch. No one was going to nick it. I still cringe thinking about that and have no idea why I though I needed to do it.

When I worked in an office we had regular fire drills and were told we were not to waste time grabbing bags, coats etc. Every fire drill some people did get their bags, coats etc.

One time we had a bomb scare (during the IRA bombings in London) and had to evacuate quickly. I just left the building but others took the time to grab their bags etc.

Exactly. Anyone who has actually studied emergency behaviour (rather than just reading sensationalist news reports) knows that it is a well recognised phenomenon that people try to behave as if everything was normal.

Blocking the aisles?

The fastest way out of an aircraft in an emergency is over the head rests. I think it was Boeing demonstrated this in getting one of their planes safety approved. They wanted to make a change to the conventional layout/number of exit doors and had to prove to the authorities that this wouldn't delay evacuation.

To do the test they made an important change to the way it's normally done. Instead of paying all the volunteer passengers for the test the same amount for their time, they paid considerably more to the first ones out.

When they analysed the test they discovered that the first ones out were often not those sat closest to an exit, but they were the ones that took the most direct path to the exit they used - and that was generally over the seat backs and not via the aisle.

People exhibit all sorts of strange behaviours during stress. But if your motivation is to get out quickly, the conventional rules (using the aisle, queuing, etc.) often get in the way of the goal.

It’s no excuse but in the two times I have been faced with immediate danger I literally freeze. Watch the film force majeure about a family skiiing they think there will be an avalanche and in that moment the dh grabs his gloves and runs off to save himself leaving wife and kids! It’s a false alarm and the rest of the film deals with the emotional fall out. Worth a watch.

That said getting bags delaying others exit is truly awful.

I read a book by an airplane accident investigator. The two main things people do wrong in an airplane crash is

1. Be unable to get out of their seat because they forget that the seatbelt in a plane does not unlock like a car one. So they try and find the button to press you have in a car seatbelt
2. Get luggage out of overhead lockers

It is not about being selfish. But that in an emergency peoples brains tell them to act in a way they know. People go into automatic pilot mode.

people.com/human-interest/man-woman-die-trying-save-dogs-frozen-ponds/

See both these stories as an example (different situation but same general idea).

The dogs had both walked onto frozen ponds - their owners panicked and followed the dogs. Both owners perished and both dogs survived. The owners' instinct was presumably "I need to save my dog" - neither owner thought logically:

• that they were much heavier than the dog and therefore more likely to fall through the ice and drown.
• that they would have gone into shock as soon as their bodies hit the water, rendering them unable to swim, let alone rescue the dog.
• that even if they had survived, they'd have had to get onto land and somewhere warm - highly unlikely considering the temperature outside and the fact that they'd be soaking wet, panicked and freezing cold.
• that dogs are far sturdier and capable than people in these situations (especially the husky) and far, far more likely to survive than a person would be.

You only have to google "people dying saving dogs" to find thousands of identical stories. One happened in the UK not too long ago - a dog jumped into a river, the owner panicked and went in after him. The dog was absolutely fine and jumped out not long after, but the man got swept away and died.

People's instinct (in those situations) is to save their beloved pet. They don't think rationally about how a) their pet will more than likely survive, and b) their actions may well kill them.

If it makes anyone who does believe in having people to blame, seeking punishment etc., then that man’s life (and others photographed) is probably ruined now anyway. His photo has been splashed everywhere with zero understanding or explanation for why people might have behaved like that.

(goes into engineer mode....)

I wonder if it's possible to increase the price of flying design an interlock system so that if the oxygen masks drop, the lockers are sealed shut ?

(leaves engineer mode, engages accountancy mode .....)

Probably waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay simpler and cheaper to ban cabin luggage. Probably works out better for the airline as it will be less weight overall (and therefore less fuel).

(ends accountancy mode)