To think more emphasis needs to be placed on what is appropriate to say to childless people

[ChocoCrocc]

The following are pretty much weekly occurrences for me:

'When will you be having kids then?'
'Do you not want kids?'
'When you have kids...'
'Ugh, you're so lucky, they're such hard work'

My boss will quite often ask me if I'm pregnant if I go in and ask to speak to her about something or if I say I'm feeling unwell in a sort of jokey way.

In actual fact I'm suffering terribly with recurrent miscarriages and may never have a living child.

AIBU to think that the above sort of questioning of people who are practically strangers needs to stop and people need to be pulled up more when they do it?

I appreciate that people in my situation have a heightened sensitivity to this sort of thing but I feel like I shouldn't need to explain my situation to everyone who asks me these things (which I don't do anyway as it just seems awkward and private).

Miscarriage and other fertility issues are not uncommon!

But everyone has issues that they’d rather not be reminded of or that deviate from ‘the norm’

I agree. But I don't think things like people's choice/ability to reproduce should just be widely accepted as appropriate small talk (which they are). The first poster on this thread compared it to asking about the weather which just demonstrates the lack of thought or care that people actually place on this sort of conversation.

They think it's just a breezy question to be thrown in after asking whether someone thinks the sun will be out at the weekend. In actual fact it's nothing like that and people should be smarter!

Your comparisons with your mother are of course, all very true and similar applies!

it's not just/not so much general comments that people are objecting to, it's the judging. 'You’ve never known love until you have your own kids’. 'I don't know what I did with my time before I had them.' 'If I didn't have kids, then I could go on all these holidays like you do.' etc etc

And yes definitely this too!

Male and female colleagues!

Male colleagues - very family oriented team (amazingly for a banker, super into family and no divorces etc), older men always trying to give advice and interested in upcoming children.

Female colleagues - usually all the PAs, who my husband is firm friends with as he loves a gossip and they are constantly asking!

@DarlingNikita

Yes, of course and I agree that those comments are thoughtless. I suppose I just think that you’ll be battling thoughtless/insensitive/stupid people forever, OR you can take charge and deal with it.

What I notice too is that the person who has been hurt seems unwilling to be just as blunt as the person who has just been cruel.

In the earlier example where a person rendered infertile after cancer treatment: I’d have said ‘it’s nothing to do with being selfish - I can’t have children and it’s something that makes me quite sad. You should perhaps think before you speak in future - not everyone is as robust as I am.’

I appreciate that not everyone is as forthright as me, but I don’t think anyone should put up with crap.

The awful thing about these innocent but highly intrusive questions is that they don't stop when you are older either, in fact people assume you have children (and grandchildren) then. I have a friend who finds it very difficult to mix socially in any new groups, or volunteer for things if she will meet new people specifically because these questions come up immediately when people are getting to know you. Just a little bit more thought would really make such a difference because we all have more things in common to talk about and more interesting things to talk about as well.

cheesewitheverything I had to double take then! I thought I'd posted

Just a little bit more thought would really make such a difference because we all have more things in common to talk about and more interesting things to talk about as well

Spot on!

I don't actually mind people saying things along the lines of "they're really hard work" as long as it's meant honestly and sincerely and not just being trotted out as a thoughtless platitude.

What I notice too is that the person who has been hurt seems unwilling to be just as blunt as the person who has just been cruel

You are right though, it would be helpful if I felt able to throw it back. Unfortunately I don't right now so it's easier for me to just nod along which of course doesn't help the situation.

I guess the point of the thread is just to highlight to people, without having to go through everything I find so difficult to talk about every time, that just because someone doesn't immediately reprimand you for saying this sort of stuff doesn't mean it hasn't affected them.

We don't have to wait to be told something is not appropriate if we just think a little more.

I don't actually mind people saying things along the lines of "they're really hard work" as long as it's meant honestly and sincerely and not just being trotted out as a thoughtless platitude

No, but in my experience it's usually follows something like 'you're so lucky...'

Merry, well that's what the OP has posted for, really; support and hopefully some advice on how to be more resilient, or at least on what to say to make her boss think again about her comments.

I don't disagree that people could and should be more willing/able to speak out; but there is a great weight to social norms like being polite, not embarrassing people or calling out their comments etc. And perhaps more to the point, the sad fact is that this weight seems to attach more to women, who are under a lot more pressure than men to be nice and not rock boats etc. Of course it is often also women who are the target of thoughtless comments about babies –posters on here have pointed out that they know men who've rarely or never been asked the same questions or subjected to the same comments that they have.

So while, yes, personal assertiveness and resilience can and should always be improved, there is a clear social problem here too.

I agree a million percent with you OP. I think it’s such an appalling invasion of the private sphere when people question or make thoughtless comments on subjects like this, in the name of idle chit chat.
Similar theme, but my Mum was told “cheer up, it might never happen” by a shop assistant a few days after her mother died ( horrible death, cancer, drawn out, horrendous time) and that was only 6 months after her father died (stroke, also drawn out, no peace at the end, horrendous time). She was absolutely out of her mind with grief and exhaustion and this thoughtless oaf had no idea about her or her life. How dare people make these kinds of comments??
Now, I pull people up when then make comments like that to me. I tell them they have no idea about my life or my day so could they please refrain from comment. I don’t care if it makes them feel awkward, I just want them to think before they speak.

I’ve just remembered something else that happened to my friend who is infertile due to cancer treatment.

She was buying a house and the female estate agent said to her “I assumed you had children because most people buying houses like this in this area are buying so that their children can live in a safe and peaceful area with good schools, why do you want to buy a house in this area?” The female estate agent said this in quite a sharp and nasty tone. So do people who don’t have children have to live in dangerous and noisy areas and leave the safe and peaceful areas for people with kids? I told her to complain to their head office, as despite the fact that it was said by a female, it’s still a sexist comment that I doubt would have been said to a man.

YANBU. I would never ask someone these questions and i’ve got several friends struggling with infertility right now. I’m sorry for the pain you’ve endured OP, and that tossers make it worse.

Agree fully OP.

I have secondary infertility and people for a very long time used to ask “when are you having another”, “isn’t it time x had a little brother or sister” or the utterly charming “x wonders when she’s having a little sister mummy”.

I gave up very quickly being passive and answer honestly.

It might make them uncomfortable. I hope it does and they think twice about doing it again.

YANBU OP
Why are people so rude? I would never ever ask someone childless why they didn't have kids it's a highly personal question and none of my business!!

jacqueshammer

I don’t care if it makes them feel uncomfortable, they made you feel uncomfortable by asking in the first place. So insensitive that they deserve to be made to feel uncomfortable.

I’m appalled by some of the things that have been said to my friend. I think infertility should be recognised as a disability and then infertile people would be given protections under the Equality Act.

@CheeseIsEverything double take here too

I've read this thread with interest! I'm childfree by choice, my husband is 20 years older than me and already has 3 kids and a vasectomy before we met. We now work together so most people who know me know he has kids so I think that's why I don't get asked very often.

When I do get asked, I still find it incredibly rude. I've been sure of my choice since I was 18 - now 32 so had lots of thoughtless comments along the lines of 'you'll change your mind one day', 'don't you worry about being lonely in old age' etc etc.

Even though it doesn't bother me, I generally use the 'I don't like kids' response to shut them up. This isn't true as I adore my stepchildren but I just can't bear the intrusiveness. Perhaps i should start sharing about my DH vasectomy to shut them up

I'm so sorry for what you've been going through

Well done for continuing to raise awareness of this

@ChocoCrocc

It's hard because as inappropriate as I find her comments, I do like her as a person and a boss so it's deciding whether or not to rock the boat. I actually think she'd be incredibly supportive if she knew what was going on but I'm not ready to share.
Would you be rocking the boat though? And you absolutely don't have to share with or or anybody else until you want/need to.

In your place, however, I'd ask to speak to her in private and quietly let her know that question was inappropriate and intrusive and you'd prefer her not to ask you any more. Also that, should you become pregnant, you'd let her know at the right time and according to policy. Until then that subject is off limits.

You shouldn't have to say any of this to anyone let alone your boss, who should be aware of the law and company policy and should, actually, use some common sense. Unfortunately until you put a stop to it she's unlikely to see anything wrong and will keep asking. Hope you can get this resolved OP. 🌹