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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think more emphasis needs to be placed on what is appropriate to say to childless people

144 replies

ChocoCrocc · 02/05/2019 11:46

The following are pretty much weekly occurrences for me:

'When will you be having kids then?'
'Do you not want kids?'
'When you have kids...'
'Ugh, you're so lucky, they're such hard work'

My boss will quite often ask me if I'm pregnant if I go in and ask to speak to her about something or if I say I'm feeling unwell in a sort of jokey way.

In actual fact I'm suffering terribly with recurrent miscarriages and may never have a living child.

AIBU to think that the above sort of questioning of people who are practically strangers needs to stop and people need to be pulled up more when they do it?

I appreciate that people in my situation have a heightened sensitivity to this sort of thing but I feel like I shouldn't need to explain my situation to everyone who asks me these things (which I don't do anyway as it just seems awkward and private).

Miscarriage and other fertility issues are not uncommon!

OP posts:
HollaHolla · 02/05/2019 14:28

Also - can I add ‘Doing it for my kids’.... eh, how about doing it for myself?
And - ‘you’ve never known love until you have your own kids’. Fuck. Right. Off.

Original poster
ChocoCrocc · 02/05/2019 14:30

you’ve never known love until you have your own kids’. Fuck. Right. Off

Yep! Or tiredness or responsibility etc etc.

OP posts:
DarlingNikita · 02/05/2019 14:48

you’ve never known love until you have your own kids’. Fuck. Right. Off

Christ yes. And 'I don't know what I did with my time before I had them!' accompanied by a martyr-ish expression.

OP, if there's no HR then you you should say something like what Blue suggests. And don't be so worried about 'rocking the boat' – she's the one causing problems, not you!

NeatFreakMama · 02/05/2019 14:55

Sure, your intent may not have been to offend, but if you then DO offend (and this question IS a sensitive one) then the ONLY reasonable response is to immediately apologise and resolve not to make the same misstep twice

Yes agreed and I don’t think most people would not apologize or stop once they knew it was offensive, It’s just taking kids as a conversation topic away entirely I’m not sure on myself. I think we have the conversational norm where I realize I might have offended someone by talking about a husband for example, and let’s say he recently died then it would get awkward and I’d know to stay away from it. I wasn’t to know something was a difficult topic going in, if you see what I mean. Everyone has their story and their own sore points so it’s how we try to accommodate these and be kind when we don’t know.

Original poster
ChocoCrocc · 02/05/2019 14:59

It’s just taking kids as a conversation topic away entirely I’m not sure on myself

But that is absolutely nothing like what I'm saying...

You can talk about your own kids if you wish. That's different to saying any of the things in my OP which are all essentially assumptions that another person will have or will want children.

Saying 'oh my DD daughter did x last night' is entirely different to saying to someone you don't know 'sooo when are you having kids?!'

OP posts:
Original poster
ChocoCrocc · 02/05/2019 15:04

It's the same with the husband example.

No one is expecting you to stop talking about your own marriage. But it is rude to ask people when they are going to settle down and get married as if it's a given that they will.

It implies you think it's the done thing and what everyone should want to / can do.

OP posts:
SoHotADragonRetired · 02/05/2019 15:08

I thought it was illegal for employers to ask if you are pregnant?

It's not. The only thing that's illegal is to discriminate on the basis of pregnancy or maternity. However, a sensible employer would not ever ask about pregnancy/children during, say, a recruitment process as to do so would open them up to the perception of discrimination.

It's not illegal for a boss to ask if you are pregnant. (It is, however, rude and unmannerly.) It would only be illegal if, acting on the information or belief that you were pregnant, she failed to promote you/gave you a negative performance rating/cut your hours etc.

FuckingDelightful · 02/05/2019 15:09

The other stuff is just idle chit chat people make as conversation fillers or openers, along with the weather and the old 'it might never happen' style comments. People mean no harm

Plenty of people are very happily child free by choice, and perfectly willing to talk about this

I can see why it’s annoying but I also think we should all give each other some slack. People say stuff that might offend but rarely are they trying to be offensive

Well done for demonstrating exactly why this still needs to be discussed.

Rezie · 02/05/2019 15:12

I hate it whenever response to anything is "are you pregnant?" You cannpt ever decline alcohol, you can never be nauseous, you can never be tired etc.

NeatFreakMama · 02/05/2019 15:12

I definitely see what you’re saying so it does restrict people asking about other people’s lives before they bring it up themselves though? Like are you married, do you have kids, do you work, do you have pets, do you have siblings etc...? I know you’re intending kindness but I just wonder if we’d be kindly sleep walking into a slightly restricted and uncomfortable place where no ones sure what to say so as to not offend. Like my dad isn’t alive but if someone says to me ‘what did you do for fathers day’ I don’t expect them to not ask because it’s happening and it’s fun for some/ most people. I find it upsetting though because it reminds me what I don’t have. Is that a fair comparison so you see what I’m getting at anyway?

itwasalovelydreamwhileitlasted · 02/05/2019 15:13

I would be honest with her tell her about your miscarriages? People won't ever learn to be more respective of other peoples struggles if they never know about them so at the moment you can't judge your boss ???

CheeseIsEverything · 02/05/2019 15:17

so at the moment you can't judge your boss

Erm yes she can! The whole point of the post is that OP should not have to tell her boss about her miscarriages if she doesn't want to and certainly not as a means to avoid ridiculously rude and inappropriate questions which should not be asked in the first place.

Chesntoots · 02/05/2019 15:25

I don't mind the "have you got children?" question because that, in itself, is a conversation opener. A bit like "going anywhere on holiday this year?".

What I object very strongly too are any questions that follow that, along the lines of "why?".

I was once a bit drunk and extremely rude to someone when then they started down that line. Not my finest moment, but it got my point across....

Original poster
ChocoCrocc · 02/05/2019 15:26

People won't ever learn to be more respective of other peoples struggles if they never know about them

Well that's kind of the point. Someone shouldn't have to tell you. You shouldn't be asking in the first place.

OP posts:
sillysmiles · 02/05/2019 15:26

Honestly with your boss - if they say it again - I would take a breath, look them in the eye and respond with "I have had multiple miscarriages and may never have a child. You asking if I am pregnant even time we have a meeting is unnecessary, rude and callous. If I am ever pregnant you will be informed. Please let there be no need for us to have this conversation again. I am here to talk to you about xyz"

Original poster
ChocoCrocc · 02/05/2019 15:31

I don't mind the "have you got children?" question

I was going to say this too actually. I don't mind this as much, although its still painful.

But it's the assuming I hate.

when are you having kids then?

You'll understand when you have kids... (Tbh just assuming anyone can't understand anything if they don't have children is fucking rude).

when are you joining our 'mummy crew'? Envy

Or the gasps of despair women receive who are childless by choice as if it's the only thing you're good for.

OP posts:
SerenDippitty · 02/05/2019 15:33

*I don't mind the "have you got children?" question because that, in itself, is a conversation opener. A bit like "going anywhere on holiday this year?".

What I object very strongly too are any questions that follow that, along the lines of "why?".*

Exactly. The answer "no" should be the end of it as far as the questioner is concerned.

NewMum19344567 · 02/05/2019 15:37

I have a baby and am having no more due to alot of physical and emotional issues, always get asked when next baby is coming and when I say no more they keep saying why over and over. There are so many topics out there I hate that it always comes back to when you are having kids, so sorry for everything that's happened to you Flowers

DarlingNikita · 02/05/2019 15:41

I like that, silly, except I'd leave out 'I have had multiple miscarriages and may never have a child.' and 'callous'. It's none of her business.

MorrisZapp · 02/05/2019 15:42

Yanbu but you are being unrealistic. MN is full of threads by people who have been hurt by casual comments about x, because x is the thing they're currently struggling with.

But nobody is born knowing the right thing to say to the bereaved, the infertile etc. And posters here only know it's an issue because it's happened to them.

Unless you yourself were super careful never to say anything potentially tactless to a woman of childbearing age before you faced these issues in your own life, then you're one of 'them', the great 'other' that are so easy to criticise.

The world isn't divided into those who are tactless and those who are struggling. We're all just human and we all face different challenges at various points in our lives.

Next year your own throwaway comment might hurt someone who hasn't told you what they're going through.

Original poster
ChocoCrocc · 02/05/2019 15:44

Talking about the stigma around women not having children (through choice or otherwise), it reminds me of something a woman I knew said a while back.

She was explaining why she felt sorry for an older lady in her family, she gave lots of reasons and one of them was 'she never had kids'.

It really annoys me. I can't stand the pity as if it's a really awful thing that someone may not ever have children.

Of course it is awful for the person if they genuinely want them and can't, but it's just another reason why I don't like sharing with everyone. I don't want to be pitied, it's embarrassing.

OP posts:
FuckingDelightful · 02/05/2019 15:51

MorrisZapp yes but these sorts of questions about children are incredibly common.

People think asking someone when they plan to have children is appropriate small talk when it isn't and I agree with the OP that just because it's a social norm that people have come to accept doesn't mean it should be and that it should not be challenged.

Honestly, whether OP said anything like this before her miscarriages or not is irrelevant. It doesn't stop her from having a valid point now and it doesn't stop it being important to inform other people of so they can think before making the same mistake.

missperegrinespeculiar · 02/05/2019 15:55

A bit off topic (and I should say I agree with you OP, these questions should not be asked they way they usually are, or at all really) but on the "You will understand when you have kids" being offensive, I can see this when it is about things one could understand anyway (like, what love is, you don't need kids to know what love is!), but surely, said about things specific to parenthood this is just true? I mean, you can't know what being a parent is if you are not one, can you? the same way that you can't know what being an olympic athlete is if you are not one, say.

Of course you can try and imagine and sympathise etc., we all try, or should try, to put ourselves in other people's shoes, but you can't KNOW, in fact, wouldn't it be presumptuous to say you can know?

Actually, when I was struggling with infertility, part of my pain was precisely the fear that I would never know what it is like to have children, thereby in a way admitting this is true.

Original poster
ChocoCrocc · 02/05/2019 15:56

Honestly I've always been careful around this subject as my mum went through a similar thing (secondary infertility after me) so I know the heartbreak it can cause and she brought me up not to ask those sorts of questions.

Regardless though, I still don't think there is anything wrong in spreading the word to people that yes, this can be very offensive and insensitive.

If I saw a post from someone explaining why they found a particular question or phrase offensive, I would take it on board for the future if I hadn't been aware before!

OP posts:
Mentalray · 02/05/2019 16:01

A related annoying question to these is the old 'when are you due?' that random strangers will ask if you have a bit of a pot belly or are particularly bloated!!

I have a permanent pot belly, won't go away unless I go underweight, and constantly have people assuming I'm pregnant. It's unbelievable the number of knob-ends that will ask you when you are due, even older women do it! How can they not realize some people might have just miscarried or just have a tummy?

I got really mad once and asked one of these people why she had to ask me when I 'was due' and she said because I had skinny arms and legs but a pot belly. Like everyone is perfectly flat unless pregnant. She was about 35!