Or is the person we're buying a house from totally fucking batshit?

[sootspritez]

I'm gonna start by saying I know I'm not being unreasonable, however I am inexperienced, so looking for some guidance on where you think things have gone wrong and what I can now do to placate this nutjob vendor. NC as outing. Will try not to drip feed.

Dh and I are first time buyers. Visited a house. Loved it. Offered full asking price. All fine up until this point.

3 weeks after offer is accepted the survey happens. This is when things start going south.

Let's say that house was on market for 150k. Survey came back and said the house was only work 137k due to needing new Windows, chimney work, roof tiles, etc and the bank believe this was all the house was worth.

Survey cost in excess of £500 so fairly decent survey for a reasonable priced house. Put it to the agents that unfortunately this is now all we can offer as the mortgage lenders I.e. bank believe it's all the house is worth due to work needing doing. Fully prepared to be told tough and that they're holding out for the full price as I know they rejected a previous offer for being slightly below asking.

Vendor agrees to sell for 137k immediately. Phew... Or so we thought.

From this point on the following has happened via estate agents -

• vendor has cancelled 3 second viewings because they were inconvenient though she initially agreed

• she has denied entrance to the property for a contractor to come out with us to estimate how much work needs doing

• pointlessly got in touch to specify that now that they had gone below asking that all appliances wouldn't be included (I didn't want her appliances)

• asked EA to ask us TWICE if we would be willing to offer them more money despite accepting price given by mortgage lender

• when we have asked for another viewing she has proposed just insane times '20 mins at 6pm on the last Sunday of the month' '30 mins at 10.30am exactly 4 weeks on friday' despite us offering to be entirely flexible where possible (I.e. evenings and weekends at her convenience but would be willing to book an hour off work if she can guarantee the time). She says she cannot guarantee time as she works fill time and has 2 boys who play football until 8pm every single night and all day every weekend and they are her priority.

She has told the EA that she thinks we are inflexible and both the EA and the branch manager have apologised to us for her behaviour but obviously won't challenge her on it.

Am I right in thinking she's pissed off about lowering the price and just doesn't wanna sell her house?!

”The issues raised in the survey are significant and are cause for concern. Basically she removed the chimney breast in the downstairs but left it upstairs and they can't tell if she's put in an RSJ to keep the building secure and stop the floor buckling. She hasn't volunteered that info.

So I'm expected to just accept that and move in?”

No you’re not expected to just accept that, of course not. But you chose to make a revised offer without that information and without costing the work, and that revised offer was accepted.

As soon as any issues are raised in a survey, you get all the information you need about costs/extent of work required first, and then make your revised offer.

If the seller doesn’t like open house viewings - she is hardly likely to let those 10 potential buyers bring their builders to traipse around the next week before making an offer.
If it was me I’d walk on this one.

I’d walk too OP, sounds like she has something to hide and that the rest of the house is properly bodged together and that if you look properly you will see this. Ie the bathrooms, kitchen etc. You might lose a little bit of money but this is better in the long run than walking into a huge money pot ( that doesn’t even have a supporting wall!)

OP, I’m with you! I visit £25 kettles in shops more than once before I decide if I want them. No way I would buy a house without seeing it multiple times. And realistically you can’t do that all pre-offer because (1) you don’t have all the information as with your chimney example and (2) making an offer is often time sensitive and you have to play the eager game. I sold a house last year and think buyer probably came about once a fortnight just to “check stuff”. It was barely an inconvenience because I lived in the house so was there quite regularly. I’m not sure someone can claim it’s an inconvenience? And I’m not sure that’s a valid reason if even they did. It’s all part of the process. Good luck seeing other houses, you really may want to seriously consider buying somewhere else! Could be a big regret in the long run if not.

Why on earth would you put in a revised offer without knowing whether the building is secure?!

You should have arranged a second viewing before you made an offer. That’s the point of second or any subsequent viewings. She’s sold it now, why should she keep having to make herself available.

That said, due to the survey results I think most vendors would allow a visit but she’s obviously not very accommodating so you need to decide if you want the house regardless or whether to look for something else. The viewing you’re proposing though is not so much a ‘second viewing’ as that would take place before making a formal offer. It is more a viewing you feel necessary based on the results of the survey. I take it you wouldn’t be expecting to see the property again if the survey had been satisfactory?

Can see why your concerned OP - although I do remember feeling slightly apprehensive after seeing the survey because it’s scary stuff and when they are putting things in that they couldn’t check due to access it sets your mind in over drive. From what you’ve written it would appear you liked the house on viewing but as were told that another offer had been made panicked and made the offer to secure the house. I also read that (and I may have misunderstood) you didn’t negotiate a lower price just that your mortgage company only would lend the reduced amount so it’s been negotiated for you based on that info. We had to put an RSJ in our house where a wall had been removed however we brought a house that needed a lot of work so expected to do things. If I was you I’d walk away and maybe consider how you move forward with other offers based on this experience. I wonder if the seller is panicked that as you want to bring a builder you may look to pull out anyway if you are up to your mortgage limit. As you said you wouldn’t buy the house after a 5 min viewing so don’t buy it, there will be others this one just isn’t the one for you.

I assume you had a home buyers survey. If the chimney removal had caused structural damage to the property, there would very likely be a note from the surveyor stating there were cracks or floor issues, which needed further investigation. Perhaps call the surveyors office to get clarification on this. Tbh where there is no damage it really isn’t that much of a big deal to remove the entire stack, install and RSJ or reinstate the chimney at ground level.

As has already been quoted you should have done further due diligence post survey prior to reducing and agreeing the price. You want to know if there is an RSJ as you are concerned about the costs putting the chimney right. The woman is correct, you are potentially looking to further offset your costs potentially by trying to further negotiate. She is clearly telling you that won’t work for her. Your choice what you do with this information.

As for trying to clarify points like this, it’s your solicitors job to write to their solicitor to seek it. And they are perfectly within their rights not to want your contractor to measure up for a kitchen. You can do this once the property is yours. You may think it’s rude but equally she thinks the same, afterall in doing this you are criticising her taste and her home.

I think you need to get walk away, she clearly has something to hide. No point in buying a house that could potentially be dangerous. She is being completely unreasonable, if your survey found a list that like you said they did, the next person will find the same problems and maybe more. The seller should be just trying to get rid this stage and should be willing to reasonably accommodate requests.

OP is being completely reasonable. It's not a second viewing she wants its access to assess/ measure specific items. I have never sold it bought a house where this hasn't happened whether it be for curtains, to check whether an existing appliance will fit ir to look at something after a survey, all totally normal. If someone wasn't allowing visits for that I would be extremely suspicious

I recently sold my house and my buyers came round for 2nd and 3rd viewings bringing various people with them and then asked that a builder come round to look at something he wanted done. When they did this, I ended up waiting for an hour with them standing in my living room pointing out things and being rude because the builder was late. Then they stayed another 45 minutes when he turned up. It was my day off and my toddler was running around them and I had to basically try to keep her from trying to play with them (and their son) because they just stood there stony faced and ignored her. Honestly, it was an invasion and I hated it.

Really surprised that people think it's odd that you would want to follow up on issues raised in a survey that you've understandably had done after your offer is accepted. Very normal to offer subject to survey.
Which is what the Op did. And put in an offer after the survey. Seller thought she was good to go especially important they are in a chain.
Seller has given some specific times to let you in. What’s the problem with that? Those are the times you need to do; you said you were accommodating, so be it.

A lot of previous posters make it sound like you’ve made a deal with the devil by putting an offer in. None of it is legally binding therefore every offer anyone makes to your house is “subject to survey”. They’re also “subject to you letting me in to measure for a cooker” and “subject to me just changing my mind and not fancying it any more”. You can change your mind about ANY of it. Assuming PPs saying that you are a pain and your seller not letting you access have never had a sale fall through before!

And I wouldn’t listen much to “other banks might not down value it”. I’ve worked in EA before and from my experience, once one RICS surveyor puts a price on it, the others will agree. It’s not the bank placing the value at all.

You're completely in the right. Ignore everyone else being utterly ridiculous saying second viewings after offer accepted is not normal.

I'd call her bluff and threaten to walk.

If she really has taken out a chimney breast below but kept it up top then that is enormous building work with the RSJ being supported by various walls. And costing loads so she would bloody well remember if it had been done or not.

Personally I'd walk away. She's hiding something. It's a wrench because of the hope and the money already spent on the survey.... but....

Your solicitor should be asking questions about the RSJ. Has she completed the seller's questionnaire?

I have bought and sold many houses and have never done a second viewing before offer there's really not much you can see with your eyes that would add to a survey. You can't "see" structural problems. Everyone either relies on a survey or trusts that the house is built well in the first place.

Good luck OP, I hope it all works out for you.

You still hold the whip hand, as you haven’t exchanged contracts. If I were you this property would leave a sour taste in my mouth. I’d walk away. At the very least give her an ultimatum that you will walk away if she doesn’t afford you the access you need.

I’m worried though that you seem to need a structural survey re the chimney breast. How can someone find out if there is an RSJ without taking the building apart?

Op you are NOT being at all unreasonable! we are in our 3rd owned property and each time we bought we made at least two visits, with this one we made three. If your vendor is keen to sell she should enable your visits - not doing so is likely to result in you pulling out.

TBH she sounds mad and I would be extremely wary of any future dealings with her. She sounds like the type to pull a fast one and demand £15k more on the day of money transfers.

If it were me I would walk away and never look back. Unfortunately it means waving goodbye to the money you have forked out for surveys and so on but the omens are not good.

*In my experience all properties that are not brand new attract these sorts of comments on a survey. Windows well you can see those and would have thought about whether you want to replace them or not, the EA valuing would have been able to take those into account in the price, roof tiles if they have slipped or are missing no big deal to get them replaced. Your survey hasn't pulled up anything major from what you have pasted into here.

Sorry but you come across as a pain, someone who doesn't understand the process, jumped in with both feet panic offering on a property*

We had the exact same issue when selling our previous property, including the chimney breast situation you describe (although it was like that when DH bought it). The first couple who offered and had a survey done, then panicked and pulled out at "all of the work" that needs doing. Turns out we were their 3rd property and the EA said they basically wanted a new build they could move straight into no problems but without the price tag.

We did allow 2nd viewings, and 3rd for both them and the couple who went onto buy the property but the naivety of first time buyers bit us on more than just this occasion. I think she's a bit unreasonable but I think you've been very naive and predict you'll pull out.

I’d walk too.

If she’s this difficult now, imagine when it comes to contract and move dates

Say that unless you’re allowed a half hour slot to get a builder to have a look at the issues raised in the survey and all the questions answered, you’re walking away.

And mean it.

I would walk away too, another house will come along for you.

This one sounds like it isn’t worth the risk. If her husband is a builder, he will know exactly where the RSJ was put in, length it it, where it was supported etc. My dh is an electrician and knows where every cable and junction box is in our house from all building work we have had done.

I find some of these responses crazy. We're currently under offer and I'll allow the buyer to come pretty much whenever they want as we want to sell. I don't understand why you would make it difficult if you want to sell. Of course you want to understand the scale of the issues. What sane person wouldn't want to?

Tbf OP I don't think the seller is doing anything wrong, but neither are you.
House buying is emotive. Your trying to buy someone's home. A place where they may well have had some life changing experiences, a place they are incredibly fond of. So far they've had at least 10 people picking apart their home in one weekend, you've told them that it isn't worth what they thought it was, now you want to go back and pick apart some more and you may even turn around and tell them it isn't worth your time. I think her pride is hurt as much as everything. I understand it is silly but I know plenty of people who are very emotionally invested in their houses.

From your POV, you need to understand if this house is worth your time, effort and cash. Are you buying a money pit? Will the work ever be 'done'? I understand you want to fully vet the whole house, measure up etc before signing, but this is still her home, and you're asking her to give up yet more time so you can poke and prod.

Does she work? Evenings may not be great for her, especially with young kids as she might only get an hour with them in the evening before they go to bed. If they kids have activities at the weekend, she might still need to do a shop, do the washing, clean the house, ferry the kids round etc, so she can't just say "oh yes, this Saturday at 2".

To summarize, just be tactful. If you want the house, accept that you need to dance to her tune somewhat. Don't let her take the absolute piss (we learnt this the hard way), but remember that you're buying something which is second (third? Fourth?) hand and there will be some issues

Second viewings are usually before you offer (in my experience), however considering the findings of the survey it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a second look - I probably would have asked before I made the lower offer though.
I'm not sure I'd take on a house that clearly needs a lot of work though £13k probably won't cut it - these things always cost more than they're meant to.

Why on earth did you make an offer after only one viewing? You should've had a couple of visits first, then you could've measured up etc. while you were there.
Also, never offer full price straight away. Even if you intend paying the asking price, always go in lower.
Tbh, if it needs that much work doing I'd pull out. The valuation/price was clearly wrong, as usually the survey comes back at what you've offered. If it hadn't alarm bells would be ringing. Best to walk away now and avoid the huge sums you'll be paying to put stuff right.
And I'd never buy a builders house! They never do work on their own places, my poor mum has been waiting ten years for my dad to finish the half-done kitchen and bathroom!

I think you should walk away, and then try to gain a much better understanding of the house buying process before you try to buy again.

You shouldn't make an offer until you are sure you are willing to proceed, subject to survey. After a survey, you shouldn't make a second offer unless you are willing to proceed. By your own account, you are still trying to decide whether you want to buy the house, which means you may be wasting everyone's time. I think the vendor probably senses that you are unreliable.