To wonder what happens when your boyfriend asks your father for your hand...

[PumpkinLatteMyArse]

And then he says no?

Do adults just not get married then?

As for my daughters, well I can’t tell them who to be attracted to or why they should be attracted to a particular type. It’s not exactly rational, is it. I would just tell them to be honest with themselves about what matters most to them in life and find someone who shares that outlook.

Pa1oma, when I asked how you were going to arm your daughters to cope with inequalities you view as intrinsic, I meant educationally/ training for careers, in terms of their experiences of the workplace, of dealing with street or online harassment etc.

But you sound as if you are thinking of their futures entirely in terms of their relationships! Are you just hoping they'll marry versions of their father and lead a life like yours? Is that really the message you're passing on? 'You can't defeat patriarchy, so just marry someone rich and nice and keep your head down'?

Surely not.

Bulb - What wouid you like me to say? Both my daughters are very different. One is very academic and is at St Paul’s Girls school. She will find her passions and hopefully have the confidence to pursue them all the way. Another is dyslexic and needs more input from us, but she’s very creative. They can do whatever they want to do - professionally or in terms of their relationships. Why would you think their father or me would hold them back?

loveonthewall - Of course I challenge sexism in all sorts of spheres. I can’t even begin to tell you. But I don’t think you can change people’s instincts, or emotional drives or their sexuality.

Well I’m no specialist in Ancient Egypt and women’s rights, but so do know modern Egypt has the highest rate of FGM in the world.
But we arent talking about modern day Egypt.

Ancient Egypt is not anywhere name the same culture it is today, having been occupied over and over again. The fact that it was invaded by Roman's did the values most damage.

It does sound like you have given up. You think sexism is is naturally in men. So men who arent sexist are quite men? Not quite right? Missing something?

Women who dont accept it the same?

In all honesty I think your mind is scrambling to justify your life. You dont have to justify it. You seem happy. But maybe you need that to reconcile it all.

If men are born sexist, then women just have to try and live with it. So your daughters wont get to do as they wish.

Who said you should tell them who to be attracted ? Simply that if they marry from their fathers culture, like you did. They dont get those choices.

lamp - if you don’t mind me saying so, that’s a very odd interpretation indeed.

All that from the fact my DH asked for my DF’s blessing before he proposed. Really?

And you call yourself a feminist, yet deny that misogyny stems from male psychology? Where do you think it comes from? The clouds?

And so what if some women could own property in Ancient Egypt? That hardly means misogyny isn’t a human trait?

But it's not just from that one act. It's from all you have said on this thread.

Theres lots of reason it came about because of societal changes.

That's like saying it's in the nature of white men to look down on black people and sell the treat like possessions. Because they have done this.

Yes I call myself a feminist and disagree that sexism is just genetics so 'meh, might as well go along with it'

And so what if some women could own property in Ancient Egypt? That hardly means misogyny isn’t a human trait?

Because it's an example that society hasnt always been set up to be against women. Or rather quite as much. Further and further back, it was more equal.

If it was part of their nature it would have always been the same.

Of course I challenge sexism in all sorts of spheres. I can’t even begin to tell you.

Of course you can begin to tell me, I'm really interested to know.

Relationships between men and women are different to relationship between different racial groups.

Relationships between men and women are complicated by sex, attraction, romantic, emotional, biological factors. Much of this is takes place on an unconscious level.

What attracted you to your DP will be unique to you. There is no hard and fast rule for the “right type” of man.

It’s far too simplistic to say “men are born sexist.” They are not, but the instincts for power, dominance and subjugation over women are human instincts and it is these instincts which have been prevalent enough since the beginning of time to shape the world as we know it today.

But misogyny manifests in different ways. So the “MN ideal man” who spends time with his kids and does the housework, might have a certain porn fetish or certain attitudes to strip clubs. Another man may do something deemed sexist like ask for the hand in marriage, but be turned off by porn. Some men may be workplace bullies. Some men despise women but hide it better than others. Some men sublimate misogyny it as religion.

So yes, women have to be aware and negotiate all of this.

They are not, but the instincts for power, dominance and subjugation over women are human instincts and it is these instincts which have been prevalent enough since the beginning of time to shape the world as we know it today.

No they arent. The further back in our evolution you go the less of this is true. Mens (speaking in general) want of power is a society change. They are brought up thinking they have an entitlement to it so they go after it.

Woman have been conditioned to believe a want for power isnt famine and it's been tried to shamed out of us.

Which is why feminist tend point out the use of the word bitch, raging like this to describe women who simply wont back down to som mansplainjng.

A man and a woman can display the same traits in an office. The man is known as powerful and the woman the office bitch. It happens all the time. Because society teaches women they are not feminine traits.

Women generally tend not to chase pay rises as much as men. Why? Is it part of our genetics? No.

Another man may do something deemed sexist like ask for the hand in marriage, but be turned off by porn.

And that man also may have sexist values. Not using porn doesn make a man a great catch.

That's the problem. You seem to be ok with everyday sexism as long as you are financially provided for, the kids are and he doesnt do anything too outrageous.

I believe you have convinced yourself if these things because it suits your lifestyle. You are willing to overlook certain things, because you gain in other ways.

That's fine. But the whole 'it's in their nature argument' is as ridiculous as the 'DHS culture would think women working is misogynistic, because the mans not providing'

Well so disagree with you about the “nature” v “nurture” issue, lamp. Also about things being more equal for women the further back in history you go. I doubt that,

loveonthewall - I spent most of my 20s working with trafficked women; sexually abused children as well as perpetrators of abuse.

I spent a year teaching in a remote area of Pakistan and tried to encourage girls to come to the school.

I myself, am from a very rural area in another country and had to fight hard against the “norms” there to travel abroad, inc ending up in the UK.

I can’t get into all the day to day stuff because it’s too much and boring

I have done everything I can to facilitate my daughters’ education and aspirations

No I’m not the “UN Ambassador for Women’s Issues”, but I’m no different to the next woman and I’ve no idea why I have to justify myself in this way - just because I’m a SAHM, married to a Middle-Eastern man who consulted my dad’s before he proposed, as is normal to him, So what?

Also I’ve dared to try and explain a different cultural viewpoint. Not because I think it’s necessarily “better”, just as a perspective in the wider context.

I’ve no idea why I have to justify myself in this way - just because I’m a SAHM, married to a Middle-Eastern man who consulted my dad’s before he proposed, as is normal to him, So what?

The so what is that you are promulgating sexist practices. That consulting your father is a sexist practice is a fact and not a matter for interpretation, no matter how you now choose to see it.

I've been taken outside my comfort zone on my journey to fight sexism but I'm either in or I'm out. And I'm in.

Well so disagree with you about the “nature” v “nurture” issue, lamp. Also about things being more equal for women the further back in history you go. I doubt that

Really? Why not look into it? Early settlement and early communities were more equal.

No you are trying to argue that patriarchal societies are better for wome, based on your experience.

You dont have to justify your choices. But if you are going to make claims such as you have, expect people to challenge them.

A lot of people seem to think that it’s the couple’s decision alone. It really depends on how the couple wish to interact with the family. If they want good strong relations with family, they might be willing to sacrifice some feminist ideals they don’t see as that important.

A lot depends on the individual situations. You can choose to take a stand and alienate people if you prioritise your ideals. Maybe the people you know are not sexist so no issues or maybe you don’t mind risking alienating them. Either is fine just depends on priorities.

HOLAAAAA IM ZARA 1234527272772

Sorry no idea what happened there

I am not arguing that patriarchal societies are better for women. Why take everything so black and white when the reality is shades of grey.

I’m saying that you can make laws to promote equality. Great and I’m all for that. But you can’t control people’s motivations. People don’t live their lives only in a theoretical dimension. They are driven by love, emotional needs, sexual drives, personality, culture, economics and so on. These are what determine behaviours. If you just bang out the same statements that everyone knows anyway, it just alienates people.

So what is it about your emotional needs/ sexual drive/personality/ culture/ economics that makes you (or your husband or indeed anyone you know) perpetuate patriarchal norms, Pa1oma?

Because I can assure you I’m not living my life ‘in a theoretical dimension’. I’m not entirely sure what you mean, but you seem to be suggesting that feminists would really in their secret hearts like to have car doors opened for them, be financially dependent on a rich male provider who asked daddy for our hand in marriage, and never worry their pretty little heads about the pay gap?

But instead we force ourselves grimly on ideological grounds to have careers, go Dutch, and marry men who don’t feel emasculated by doing the school run?

Seriously?

Well equally you don’t exactly choose a DH simply because he does the laundry and you can waltz around telling everyone the marvels of 50/50 housework and what incredible models you are for your children, flouting gender roles, and so on.
You choose a husband on a far deeper level than that.
Sometimes things just pan out a certain way anyway.
I don’t say it often because I get paranoid, but we had 4 DC with 2 year gaps between them. So that’s different to having one or two.
Everyone just does what they feel is best for their DC ultimately and we organised ourselves in the way that suited us. That’s it. What else should I have done?

Well actually I did pick exh and dp because they were grown men who treated me like a partner.

Exh and I both agreed that neither would be a sahp. Neither had the inclination to carry the full financial load, or give up our indepence. That's when I knew I could marry him. It worked for 18 years. Unfortunately he then had a break down and became very dangerous. But for a longtime it worked.

Again, I fancied dp and fell in love with him, but I wouldn't be having a serious relationship with him, if he didnt have the same values. He is a grown man, that I dont have to ask to Hoover. He see its needs hovering and does it. I find a man who can look after himself and not expect me to do all the organising and directing very attractive.

So yes I did pick people on practical grounds.

You didnt pick your dh on those grounds. Maybe your friends dont. But lots do.

Not sure how picking someone based in financial solvency is any better than picking someone on practical grounds, tbh.

Just skim read through this hilarious thread and it is like a trip back in time - way way back in time. Honestly, I have been married for over 25 years & it would have felt ridiculously dated even back then for DH to have asked my dad for his hand. Seriously? It just would never have occurred to either of us - or my lovely, late father.

I sometimes feel like a live in a parallel universe, no one in the circles I was in at the time was doing that sort of stuff - perhaps it has had a renaissance? I do sometimes think that as women have advanced more into a public role, society has got more frantically gendered in an attempt to put us back in our boxes - the vast swathes of pink princess stuff wasn't around when I grew up in the 70s - girls often had short hair and kids clothes were pretty unisex.

So I don't think this is as much of a tradition as some like to imply - I think it is a really outdated idea that has been dragged back out as part of the general over the top hoo haa that surrounds the modern wedding market - basically another aspect of consumerism that is no friend to women.

You have no idea why I was attracted to DH or what was going on. He wasn’t rich when I met him! So many presumptions on here. People are attracted to each other on so many levels and for all kinds of reasons! What is there to say? We were engaged within 6 months. Sometimes you can’t put it into words but you connect.
When he spoke to my dad before he proposed that was just one conversation 18 years ago! How can you have extrapolated so much from that?

Pa1oma, I’m not sure I understand your point. Why wouldn’t anyone be attracted to a man who, as well as being clever and attractive and kind and interesting etc etc, shares your values and priorities? I don’t find misogyny, selfishness or incompetence of any kind attractive, so I wouldn’t have dated, far less married, a man who was hung up on ‘traditional’ gender roles.

And no man who was looking for someone to facilitate his career and look after his children while he did the providing was going to look twice at a woman with four degrees who was primarily interested in her own career.