To think that if you are committed enough to decide to have children....

[Oakenbeach]

....you should also be committed enough to each other to get married (assuming that you don’t have any objections to marriage in principle), and that it makes no sense at all for couples to plan to have children (and I stress ‘plan’) before deciding whether to get married.

Totally agree, no way would I have considered having children with a man who didn’t want to marry me. And if I had no way would my children have a different surname to me.

No, not necessarily. But you should be committed enough to discuss living arrangements and relationship status going forward. Cohabitation will suit some people better, and not just for objectively stupid reasons like marriage is just a piece of paper. But, like marriage, it is something that should be an active choice.

Mmm. If you have few assets or give up a career for children marriage is a safeguard. However the courts are looking at 50/50 splits more than they used to in divorce.

If you've a job or put significant assets into the marriage e.g. a house deposit you may well be no better off being married than not after a split.

As long as your name is on the deeds of any property and you keep working full time I don't see that cohabitation is a risk

"Don't you know that suggesting that women should get married in order to protect themselves and their children is considered 'sneering by marrieds' on all those who haven't done this? And their hurty feelings are more important than learning about legal financial protection for their children?

So that women who think that they are 'woke' because marriage is just a piece of paper or worse think marriage is a big wedding day, actually understand what it is and what it is designed to do."

The mirth.....it burns........

Marriage is important and provides a huge amount of protection for both parties.

People confuse getting married with having a wedding - getting married is cheap, having a wedding often isn't.

And quite frankly, the "it's just a piece of paper" brigade are either deluding themselves or being insulting to the rest of us for whom marriage is expensive.

The mirth.....it burns........

I keep thinking of King Canute trying to hold back the sea with faith or whatever it was.

Donkey it's important to some people. Others would very much prefer "just a piece of paper" and the protection which only marriage currently affords.

As a moral decision or a practical one?

For women who come to a relationship with more equity in property, a higher salary, good prospects and where the couple plan to parent equally (properly equally, taking responsibility for sick days, parties, organising childcare, household responsibilities ) etc etc then there are negligible benefits to marriage.

People need to be aware and make a properly informed decision.

Additionally, children are not a bigger commitment than marriage and that myth needs to die. Having a child is a commitment to the child, or should be anyway. It doesnt innately involve any commitment to the other person. You're not entering into any kind of contract with them, whereas you are with marriage, and it's one that can give them substantial influence over you and your assets.

I agree but maybe I’m old fashioned. I guess marriage has its perks for lack of better word. I guess the overall thing is for women to protect themselves e.g. maintain financial independence if possible if not then don’t become dependent on a man (e.g. sahp) without a marriage so women are some what protected. Also I think when buying a property both partners should protect their deposit amount they paid in. married or not - its fair on both partners and practical i understand it’s not romantic but romance isn’t going to help when you split up (if you do)

I don't want to get married. I just don't. Why should it matter. We've been together 16 years and have older children. I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

I know you can get married on the cheap, but it's still money that could be better used elsewhere, rather than on a bit of paper that will change nothing.

@Oakenbeach

YANBU. I don't get it either. Maybe I am just old fashioned, but no way in hell would I have children with a man if we weren't married.

Women are putting themselves into a very vulnerable position by having babies without being married.

I am sure a bunch of posters will come on telling me I am talking shit, and they earn WAY more than their partners and are not even remotely vulnerable. But the fact is that most women are/will be.

What you have to ask, if your man will not marry you, is WHY not? Also he is sending a message to your children, that their mother is not good enough to marry.

I think women who stay with a man and have kids with a man who refuses to get married, must have low esteem. I am sure there are a few women who are content to stay unmarried and insecure and vulnerable, but they are in a minority. I mean why would you, seriously?

And the 'we can't afford it' line has gotten old. ANYone can afford to get married. It cost pennies. That's an excuse (usually perpetuated by men who don't want to get married!) Men spend vast sums on their 'man hobbies' like golf and fishing and footie (like multiple 1000s a year sometimes,) but say 'we can't afford to get married.'

Don't be a mug lady! If he wants to marry you, he will, no matter what!

And yep, a 'common law wife' is a myth. It doesn't exist, you have no rights than flatmates, and you have less of a say in ANYthing than his siblings and parents. In fact his cousins, aunts, and uncles probably have more rights and say in legal things than you. That includes any inheritances or the right to switch off (or leave on) your partner's life support.

I want children more than marriage!

You can have both.

"And quite frankly, the "it's just a piece of paper" brigade are either deluding themselves or being insulting to the rest of us for whom marriage is expensive."

I'm doing neither tyvm! It's just a piece of paper to me, totally meaningless to me, that doesn't threaten anyone who is married or take the shine off anyone's marriage.

I’m delighted I didn’t marry my lazy alcoholic ex-P (issues which were only apparent after we’d had kids) as he would have been entitled to half of the equity in the house, half of my pension and who knows what else that he had not contributed to.

Marriage does not always equal “fair” treatment in the event of a split.

If you don’t get married then don’t give up your career/reduce your earning potential and ensure that any assets are jointly owned. But then that’s not bad advice to a married couple either! Maintaining a career is surely the best financial protection and investment.

I agree, OP. But plain old common sense has become an unpopular opinion.

Why would anyone be insulted about marriage being just a piece of paper to some people?

I'm not insulted by the fact you wanted to get married. Each to their own. But to me it means nothing, so why bother with all the faf and expense, when nothing at all in my life will change, except my name! And then I'll have to go to all the dad of changing my name on everything! No thanks.

I don't find it insulting when people say marriage is just a piece of paper, only silly. Because I'm a solicitor, so I deal with a lot of rather important pieces of paper!

I always balk at people insisting marriage is important for financial security.

I was married to the father of my DC and the marriage didn’t protect me financially whatsoever, I had to do that for myself. He was and still is fairly useless so never earned much more than NMW, always made endless excuses as to why that ‘couldn’t’ change (and still does). I went to uni so I could earn much more and was in turn the higher earner by far. When we divorced, the house was mine and I earned enough to maintain a stable life for my DC and I. I only get bare minimum maintenance from him and he barely sees them. I’ve coped fine without him. The divorce was just a PITA if I’m being honest, waste of time and money (as was the bloody marriage!).

You don't have to change your name when you get married.

I agree with the OP - planning to have children then get married has always seemed illogical to me.

As well as the legal/ financial benefits of marriage before children, how do people find the time/ energy/ money to plan a wedding when they have a baby/ small child? We had a small wedding, no stag/ hen dos, yet I remember it taking over a lot of our life at the time!

Marriage is a legal contract between two individuals. Nothing more, nothing less.
Until the Civil Partnership becomes law, it is the best legal protection there is for those who want to lives their lives together as a couple and merge their respective assets.
Leaving assets aside, there are other consequences to consider.
A relative of mine, in a long term relationship and living with his partner and two children. They were living together as a family for more than fifteen years.
He has an adult child from a previous relationship many years ago.
Relative became very ill and hospitalised for several months. Unable to make decisions as he was incapable.
His next of kin is his adult child who was able to make all medical decisions on his behalf. His long term partner wasn't even allowed to visit him.

@GoosetheCat It doesn't cost much to get married, only like 2 hundred dollars/pounds. If you can't afford to get married, how can you afford you 4 month old? Strange that you planned to have a baby when you couldn't afford $200.00. Backwards priorities imo.

I am tired of hearing people, usually young women, tell me they can't afford to get married. They look askance when told getting married is cheap, a couple of hundred pounds for the licence fee. There is much confusion between getting married and having a wedding. If the getting married bit is important there is no need to delay. It surprises me that there is resistance to doing one without the other which imo makes the reasons for getting married questionable.

The commitment when having a child is to the child.

The commitment when getting married is to your spouse.

They are not the same things.

I wouldn't want to have a child with someone who wasn't committed to me though.