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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that if you are committed enough to decide to have children....

611 replies

Oakenbeach · 27/04/2019 09:29

....you should also be committed enough to each other to get married (assuming that you don’t have any objections to marriage in principle), and that it makes no sense at all for couples to plan to have children (and I stress ‘plan’) before deciding whether to get married.

OP posts:
Gwenhwyfar · 28/04/2019 10:58

"If a woman has a pension, or higher earnings or assets she WOULDN'T be protected by marriage, so please don't state this as absolute fact. Because it's not."

Earnings and assets can change and anyway, wouldn't you say that in this case it would be in the man's (or lower earning woman in the case of lesbians) best interests to get married, particularly if he might become a STAHD.

lozster · 28/04/2019 10:59

Marriage means nothing unless there is commitment, it doesnt demonstrate it in itself.

True, there is nothing stopping someone reneging on their marriage commitments.... But that’s not my point. My point is that if someone doesn’t feel sufficiently committed to sign up to marriage commitments, they’re not ready to try to conceive. *

I would respect your view if you were to say ‘I wouldn’t feel ready to conceive if I wasn’t committed to sign up to marriage’. You can’t possibly know what level of commitment anyone else feels in the scenario of either conceiving or getting married.

Allthecolours · 28/04/2019 11:12

"My point is that if someone doesn’t feel sufficiently committed to sign up to marriage commitments, they’re not ready to try to conceive."

Or maybe they just aren't naive enough to think that life will never change. That isn't to say they won't work as hard at their relationship as anybody else but they recognise life does change. They have a more realistic idea. They will do everything possible to make it work but also recognise that it is possible that it may not.

They have grown up and realised that marriage just provides a false sense of security (Not talking about financial).

I have known people who seem like the perfect couples get married and divorce within a year.

I have 3 children with my partner. We have been together 10 years unmarried. Who knows if we will be together forever. Everyone out there likes to think they are different. We just live our lives day by day and put extra work into our relationship when needed.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 28/04/2019 11:16

Earnings and assets can change and anyway, wouldn't you say that in this case it would be in the man's (or lower earning woman in the case of lesbians) best interests to get married, particularly if he might become a STAHD.*

No I wouldn't, at all. I'd say it was their choice and to do what they felt was best.

But OP isn't saying that. OP is saying women, specifically.

There's (as always) an undertone of smuggery. And don't even start me on children being "bastards". What an antiquated and thoroughly shitty way to think of children of unmarried parents.

Fucking hell I hope my kids never end up friends with children whose parents think like that. Ironically the word bastards (in the modern sense) seems to apply more to them, with the word ignorant in front of it!

Graphista · 28/04/2019 16:24

StrippingTheVelvet - no I think there are mners who are naive and unaware of how vulnerable they've made themselves. There's a few on this thread alone and if you look on the relationships board there are many dealing with the repercussions of doing so or who are sleepwalking into such situations.

I've seen posts by mners ADAMANT that "common law marriage" is legally recognised in the uk - usually cos "X told me her brothers friends cousin who's a lawyer told her so"

I've seen posts by mners who think just by having someone's children that entitles them to a claim on the home the family is living in even when they're not married, not on the mortgage/deeds/tenancy and are shocked when they're told they don't.

Who think having someone's children or living together for x amount of time entitles them to rights re their home and even "spousal support"

On this thread there are several examples of mners who think they're covered by wills, being named on life assurance, death in service, pensions etc without being married BUT they're not because their partner can unilaterally and without their knowledge revoke those at any time.

So yes it IS important here as elsewhere that myths are busted.

I've been on threads like this where more than one poster has basically gone

"Shit really?? So if we split I'm screwed?" Outlined their situation and indeed been told "yep you're extremely vulnerable if you split"

Sometimes followed by

"But I thought..." [insert myth]

Then other mners - some of whom are lawyers - come back often with links

"Nope that's got no legal standing"

And the mners that thought they weren't vulnerable clearly panicking.

"It’s disingenuous to demand the rights of a club while refusing to become a member." Totally agree.

Intheheatoflisbon NONE of those things are required by law so NO marriage in itself is no longer any more misogynistic than any other contract one enters into. If people do those things it's their choice, nothing to do with the legal requirements. And the wearing of white to show purity is actually inaccurate - it was originally to show wealth actually.

"And that is still a matter of opinion. Theres examples of it on this very thread. In 2019, women have admitted to receiving better treatment when they say they are a Mrs. That's absolutely outrageous." I was one of those that noted this issue - but it has no bearing legally.

Not marrying while you are or plan to be a sahm dependent on your partner financially "cos patriarchy/misogyny" is cutting your nose off, hypocritical and nonsensical!

"But seriously. I don't think that marriage would protect me at all. yet this thread is full of reasons why it DOES

DP has no assets (other than our jointly owned house) so there is an asset that needs protecting

or death in service benefits, no pension to speak of (my pension will be far better than his) whats the situation with his pension if he dies? If you're 'named' as recipient now I suspect he can unilaterally change that without your knowing

we jointly own the house and have the same amount invested in it. I set up the life insurance policy, so he couldn't change it without my knowledge (it's a joint policy, shock horror they let you have these even if you're not married). I'd genuinely love to know from an expert if this is genuinely possible. Even if it is there's still I would have thought the ability for him to withdraw his consent/agreement with your knowledge - they'd tell you - but neither you nor the insurers can stop him from doing so

"but then that would fall on his parents, who I get on well with and would likely refer back to me any way." My relative who was made homeless by her de facto in laws after her partner died thought she got on well with them too - you cannot predict how people will behave.

"Oh yeah and all our meagre savings are in my name, so no problem there either. If we split I would be in a better position than him (but I wouldn't screw him over, because I'm not a bitch!)" does he want to marry? As for "I wouldn't scree him over" it's less common but there are occasionally threads on the relationship boards posted by people who ARE screwing their ex over, more often seen on other sites - they don't believe they're screwing their ex over they think they're acting fairly and protecting themselves.

It's mostly women that are disadvantaged by being unmarried and having children in that partnership, yes less commonly it can apply to men and to lesbian partners too, but the fact is its mostly women in het relationships, a lot don't know the law or their rights and far too many THINK they're covered by "common law marriage" which does not exist!

HavelockVetinari · 28/04/2019 16:31

Really worried about the people who think it's 'only a piece of paper.' Are people REALLY that naive??

Yep, it's sad but lots of people are very fucking obtuse. Their own worst enemy.

Alsohuman · 28/04/2019 16:37

I’m mystified by all the people who will get their partner’s survivor pension when they die, both of us had to provide a copy of our marriage certificate when we named the other as beneficiary and l’ve also known people get married for this specific reason.

Snog · 28/04/2019 16:53

I think a lot of people DO have objections to marriage on principle.

Graphista · 28/04/2019 17:07

Snog - which is their right IF that's true.

Unfortunately I've found through life experience and online posts that a lot of those people who CLAIM to be against marriage "on principle" actually:

Have a partner who won't marry them

Won't marry as a way of protecting their own assets (usually men, but sometimes women who are better off than their partner)

Don't know the reality of how vulnerable they are as a result of not marrying inc thinking they're already protected by "common law marriage"

Wrongly think marrying means they HAVE to do certain things eg change name, have an expensive wedding

In fact I would say I've yet to come across someone in real life who genuinely is. People pnline can claim anything.

Graphista · 28/04/2019 17:10

Alsohuman - I'm taking such claims with a large pinch of salt.

I've an aunt who's a forensic accountant she's dealt with many people who've led their partners and spouses to believe certain things about the family finances only to discover it was all bullshit - another reason I support marriage, the ones that are married simply have much better access to legal recourse in such situations.

Raggerty54 · 28/04/2019 17:16

Personally, I don’t understand why people are committed enough to have children but not enough to get married. I sort of understand if they’re holding off because they want an expensive wedding (even though I don’t get why people bother expensive weddings). And I understand that some people are against marriage on principle.

I think the best way is- move in together > marriage > baby

My baby wasn’t planned and I’m not married myself so I’m not judging anyone. I always wanted to be married first.

CMills1989 · 28/04/2019 17:39

I’ve been in a relationship with my other half for 14 years. We got together when I was 16 and have a 5 year old son together. I’m currently expecting our second child.

We very much want to get married and are currently saving for the wedding we want whilst also providing for our little one. My son has his fathers second name.

I can understand your point but for me not being married to my other half makes me no less committed to him and vice versa. For us a 14 year strong relationship means a lot. In the meantime my brother in law has divorced his partner with whom he was married and had children. Marriage hasn’t made their relationship last.

I think it’s different for Individual couples of course

Fowles94 · 28/04/2019 17:41

I don't believe in marriage, it wouldn't add anything to my life. Some people show commitment in other ways.

BertrandRussell · 28/04/2019 17:51

“I don't believe in marriage, it wouldn't add anything to my life.”

Me neither.

Namechangerextraordinaire1 · 28/04/2019 17:58

I don't understand it either, in the terms of the OP. Whether or not you get round to it before the baby is born, I don't think is the subject up for discussion.

With my dd, I was young and naive and just assumed we would have the happy ever after, without any real conversation. Actually, my partner turned the instant he found out I was pregnant (which was planned, by the way). Turns out he didn't believe I would get pregnant, and didnt want a baby, and from that moment on he was vile to me. Long story short, we unsurprisingly split.

I've been with my current partner for 5 years now and we have been engaged for 2. We also found out 3 years ago that we cannot have kids without ivf. As I have a child already, we have to pay for this privately. Ideally, I wanted to get married before having a baby but, equally, I don't just want a quickie registry office with nothing else to it (not judging anyone who has or plans to do this!). Anyway. With that in mind, the 10k we could have spent on a wedding is going on fertility treatment instead. Life doesn't always go as planned!!

Lou12124 · 28/04/2019 18:01

Its hilarious how people are kicking off about planning children before marriage. I have 3 children (3 year old and twins) I am due to get married in August. Yes children are expensive but it's not a bulk payment paying for children. A wedding (one that doesn't require a £120 fee to get married) costs alot more in one payment...majority of people I know like to married in a venue which isn't a registry office and have all their family and friends witness it. Nothing against registry office weddings but it's not for me. If you want to get married you have to save for this each month which could, for some people, take years to save for. Then have to wait to have a child? I dont think it matters which order it is done In. And marriage definitely isn't everything. I know a couple who have 2 kids and have been together 20 years and aren't married? That doesn't mean they aren't committed to each other? The fact they are still together shows their commitment.

Rosettarose0808 · 28/04/2019 18:02

Isn’t actually up to the individuals what they do? Married not married living together not living together children no children - as long as everyone is happy safe and content let people be!

Graphista · 28/04/2019 18:04

Cmills - you're talking about emotion, love - neither of which mean squat legally in the event of split, critical illness/disability or death.

Not one person has claimed marriage ensures love or that the relationship will last - but actually that it's essential for if the relationship ends.

Legally you ARE less committed to each other. Neither owes the other ANY consideration if the relationship ends, you can just walk away.

Your soon to be ex bil & sil have access to LEGAL recourse if either acts unfairly wrt assets which neither you nor your partner do.

Fowles and Bertrand - where do you stand in the event of your relationship splitting, or your partner becoming sick/disabled or you or the kids, and when he dies? (Assuming you're both women I'm afraid)

TimeforaGandT · 28/04/2019 18:05

I appreciate that some people have taken considered decisions not to marry because they are independent financially and have wills, pensions etc to support this but what do you do about the aspect which cannot be avoided - inheritance tax. If, as you say you are financially successful do you want your partner to have to pay 40% tax on everything you leave them (above the nil rate band) because they are not entitled to the spouse exemption? They may have to sell the family home to meet the tax bill.

If you are not financially independent do you want to forego the right to receive the state widow pension because you did not marry?

There are financial consequences to not marrying that you cannot deal with by way of your own contracts and plans.

I

Iamheretoday · 28/04/2019 18:11

I haven't got married to my partner of my children yet as I simply don't want to. The thought of planning (and paying for) a wedding is awful. I would feel too guilty about my family if we eloped. I think we will eventually go to a registry office and maybe a meal out afterwards. I would like to be married but not have a wedding.
People assume it is DP who is dragging his feet, and if I say I would hate a 'wedding'- being the centre of attention etc, they think I am lying.
We have all the pension plans/wills etc.

CookieDoughKid · 28/04/2019 18:15

I have 2 dcs and been with my partner for 15years. I also consulted with a solicitor before having children and moving in with my partner. I am substantially wealthier than my partner yet we earn the same. He is a spender and has debts. I'm not. I take a monthly payment off him and save it for rainy days. We live off my income household wise. He spends on what he chooses and I turn a blind eye. I do the same.

Other than inheritance tax and tax breaks or incapitation ..there is no favourable outcome for me to get married. I have worked far too hard and for too many years for my childrens inheritance to be claimed by bailiffs and claimed by my husbands debts.

It's not simple the way you wrote your post especially for couples where the balance of wealth is uneven.

CMills1989 · 28/04/2019 18:16

Completely understand that point.

We have wills. We also have pensions where we have named each other as sole beneficiary. Financially both earn similar wages separately and have joint savings accounts.

Completely understand the financial reasons to support marriage. One day, we won’t need to worry so much as we will be married.

Graphista · 28/04/2019 18:19

"With my dd, I was young and naive and just assumed we would have the happy ever after, without any real conversation. Actually, my partner turned the instant he found out I was pregnant (which was planned, by the way). Turns out he didn't believe I would get pregnant, and didnt want a baby, and from that moment on he was vile to me. Long story short, we unsurprisingly split." Without wishing to "bash" you personally it's a story often told. Having the discussion about marriage can often be revealing in your partners commitment to you overall.

"I've been with my current partner for 5 years now and we have been engaged for 2. We also found out 3 years ago that we cannot have kids without ivf. As I have a child already, we have to pay for this privately. Ideally, I wanted to get married before having a baby but, equally, I don't just want a quickie registry office with nothing else to it (not judging anyone who has or plans to do this!). Anyway. With that in mind, the 10k we could have spent on a wedding is going on fertility treatment instead" while I can appreciate and sympathise with your circumstances I don't see why that precludes a smaller cheaper wedding - can still be very beautiful and nothing stopping you having a bigger celebration on an anniversary after marrying.

"Life doesn't always go as planned!!" Kinda the point myself and others are making - so you plan and prepare where you can.

Lou12124 sorry but that to me is prioritising a wedding (not a marriage) over your and your children's security. Weddings don't always have to be paid for in a single payment there are many many options.

The couple you know I suspect you don't know their financial circumstances in detail they could well include a party that will be extremely vulnerable in event of split etc.

Frazzledstar1 · 28/04/2019 18:23

DP and I and 3 DCs, we decided we wanted children and the marriage could come later. Realistically it will be a long time we can afford a proper wedding. I know we could go and get married at a registry office for peanuts but why should I give up my dream of a white wedding one day just because people like the op think I should?

Lou12124 · 28/04/2019 18:32

@Graphista
My children's security dependable on whether I am married or not? Myself and my partner have life insurance and also quite a wealthy savings account for them which is added to each month.
I also know for a fact 100% if myself and my partner were to split, married or not married he would make sure me and the children have the house until they are of an age to move out. I would carry on working during that time and be able to afford to keep myself and my children. I dont beleive you need to be married for any security. If you trust eachother and love eachother what does it matter about making it legal?

And whichever way you see it prioritising a marriage or wedding...I wouldn't want to do a party on an anniversary? I would like the big party to be on the special day. It's down to preference but to judge people because of the way they do it is ridiculous and actually just plain rude.