To get irritated with British parents in other countries attitude re parenting practices?

[amandacarnet]

Yes I probably am. But I come across British parents in real life and onMN who live abroad, and are loudly horrified at some of the ways children are routinely raised in the country they have moved to. I am not saying when you move to a country you have to agree with how most parents in that country raise their kids. But surely if you choose to move abroad, you should realise that things might be done differently. So kids may be allowed to do things at an age most would not accept in Britain. Or education may be delivered differently. Or kids may be expected to do more looking after of younger siblings.
It's as if some people think everyone in the world should follow what Britain generally sees as good parenting. When of course every culture has its own idea of what good parenting is.
I am amazed that when people choose to move abroad with kids they don't always consider any differences in the culture a,round parenting and education and how this might affect their family.
By the way I only talk about British parents as I am British and so only hear this from British people. Parents in other countries may be just as guilty of this.

I imagine there are USA/Chinese/Indian etc dominated boards full of ex-pats complaining about their new home's parenting culture. I've happened across USAian boards complaining about Brits' attitudes to cleanliness/housework/food etc, and you would think that being divided by a common language and having strong historical links that would be an easy adaptation.

Difference between expat and immigrant:
Expat is ime located in host country by their employer for a finite amount of time, once the contract ends they return home.

Trouble is, the term expat only ever seems to be used to refer to British citizens working abroad. If someone comes from another country to work in the UK for a couple of years, they are only ever referred to as immigrants. It seems to me like it's a term British people use because they don't like to consider themselves as immigrants, when in fact they are.

Most pensioners in the Costa del Sol refer to themselves as ex-pats when they are not working and have no intention of returning to the UK.

I think OP has a point: some 'when in Rome' makes everyone's life easier!

I'm in the ME with 3 teenagers.

When Ramadan starts next week, most of my students (secondary teacher) will have a day that looks like this:

4am ish - eat breakfast after being up all night. Catch 3-4 hours sleep before late start at school
9am-2pm - slump over a desk, eyes glazed
3pm-7pm - afternoon nap until sunset & dinner
8pm - 3am - hang out with family & friends all night

We tend to be up super late too, & are all for the afternoon snooze! It's a lovely time of year & I'm very happy to fall in with local practice.

Allowing my 15yo to drive himself to school like lots of his mates? Not happening!

It's a balance.

DippyAdvocado Locally, temporary workers from other countries who intend to move back are called "Guest Workers" as they don't consider this their home, which I think is a pretty neutral term? I don't think I could be offended by being called such.

while immigrants are basically the same but want to virtue signal by comparing themselves to refugees.

I was born in Canada, emigrated to the UK for work (definitely never thought of myself as a refugee!) and settled there, married British DH and eventually had British DCs. I see myself as British now, I take an active interest in politics, local community, arts etc. Thanks to work, DH being a Brit and children being at school, I made British friends. It’s not easy to integrate society as an immigrant. Locals don’t necessarily need/want to befriend newcomers, simply because they already have the network of friends and family that they want.

We now live abroad, and are definitely expats. We don’t speak the local language and we clearly don’t belong here; one day we will move again. Where we live has a fairly large expat community, which by definition is more transient, so it’s easier to make friends: everyone is losing friends all the time as they return to their home country, so we all have “openings” for friend positions.

It’s much harder to make friends with locals, for the same reasons as above.

Of course there are things, big and small, about the British “normal way” that I find weird. Why no residential summer camps? Beans on toast 🤢. The cost of childcare. The class system and low social mobility. Married women routinely taking their husband‘s name. Sexism. Dentist costing less than a facial. How expensive is fresh corn on the cob. I could go on.

You've clearly never met American parents abroad then...

I can say that because I'm American, though also British and haven't lived there for a long time.

I know Indian, Sri Lankan and Japanese families in Germany who refer to themselves as expats, and BAME heritage Americans.

It's not solely about whiteness, it's about money IMO. Though also about being placed in a country by an international employer on a (highly paid) short to medium term contract.

I do know what the OP means though she phrased it in a way guaranteed to put people's backs up.

A significant proportion of people who think of themselves as expats do seem prone to isolate their children by refusing to allow them to do things normal for the country they live in, which are not dangerous to their health. This may not matter at all if truly in an expat bubble of international school socialising and only staying 2 years.

However I knew people still thinking this way having had 1, 2, 3 or 4 children in the new country and lived there 10 or 15 years. In all those families the children spoke the language well but not to native speaker standard despite having been born in the country and gone to local childcare and school, because they didn't socialise with local children. They didn't make local friends easily due to not being allowed to walk to school with the local children or to play out with them. These families have created children who are outsiders everywhere but have a superiority complex because they often overhear comments about their country of origin being superior, and have money backing them up... We've stopped socialising with "expats" now partly because I found myself reacting by wanting to advocate fitting in more and the definite pros if some of the local parenting norms but nobody wanted to hear that, and I got accused once of displaying the zeal of the converted

I'm a white immigrants, but we've actually immigrated... I do think it's very different to being an expat and wouldn't want to bring children up as an expat personally - my kids are very much locals, though I'm an immigrant.

'Perhaps the heat is getting to you a little'? What a snide remark Springwalk. You strike me as being the worst sort of British parent, neurotic, everything being done, no matter how daft, under the guise of 'but my children', and doubtless no life or identity outside your children.

I live in China and there are plenty of expats here who are not white. Money is a key factor, but when you consider how much it costs to send a family overseas then clearly a company is only going to send those employees who can add a lot of value to the overseas venture. I estimate it costs dh's company about 0.5 million pounds per year to keep us here - his salary is only a part of that - schooling, rent, medical care, tax advice, utilities, travel costs, flights - it is very expensive.

'What Britain generally sees as good parenting'

What is this? Because even among my own friendship circle this definition would appear to vary enormously. Go on mumsnet or to the supermarket and you'll get an even more massive sample of what people consider good parenting.

People are constantly shouting 'abuse ' on here for practices that many others consider normal.

So yes. Yabu. For generalizing so heavily. Perhaps you have a very narrow group of friends in your expat community.

Wow, you're basing quite a lot of assumptions off if one comment there midsomermurderess

I agree. If you are rich you are an ex-pat. If you aren’t you’re an immigrant or economic migrant.

I don't mind being called an immigrant but I find it a bit faux humble. DH got the whole corporate relocation package, we have money for language lessons and trips back to the UK, as white people we don't experience racism, and the kids' bilingualism is seen as an asset because everyone wants to learn English. That's an incredibly privileged position to be in relative to your average economic migrant. And yet we're not expats (DH is from round here and we're probably here to stay). I mean we are immigrants, I've got no problems with that, it just feels a bit off to try and group us in with people who've come with no language, no money, fleeing war and god knows what - we've had a far easier time than them.

I live in a very multi-cultural part of Britain Amanda and I can assure you that many of my overseas friends do not hesitate to tell me how much better parenting habits are in their countries of origin! It's definitely not an exclusively British phenomenon.

toomuchtooold - there is nothing whatsoever faux humble about the term immigrant: it is just a statement of fact about someone who has moved from their country of birth/nationality into their current country of residence with the intention of moving there permanently (ie to make it their new home country). You emigrate when you leave you home country and immigrate into the new one. It's all the other terms which carry connotations or have wider meaning - eg economic migrant, refugee, ex pat, etc. An ex pat is someone who still identifies very strongly with their country of origin as being the place which defines them, who is still a citizen of that country and who has no intention whatsoever of becoming a citizen of the country they are currently in. It would be odd to call yourself an ex pat if you had actually acquired citizenship of your host country and intended to stay there forever.

I can see why it's irritating and certainly see why children could end up isolated in families that do that though I know Brits in the UK who complain about how people in the community do things and parenting and education who generally keep themselves and their family separate and don't really connect with the wider community, just their little bubble of acceptable people. It may seem more obvious when immigrants avoid the wider community, but it's not just us.

As for expat v immigrant, there is certainly a tone difference even when they mean the same thing. Most people I know who use expat came due to their or their spouse's job bringing them here, they are still really connected with their birth country and culture, visit regularly and bring their culture into their daily lives and are close to their family remaining in that country, kinda foot-in-both-worlds people even if they aren't planning to move back (though there are very much those who use it to signal that they're wealthy and shouldn't be lumped in with poor immigrants who can't regularly visit their birth countries), whereas I use immigrant as I haven't visited since getting the last visa that required me to apply in my country in origin nearly two decades ago, have only the legal connection I have little control over left, and I would happily drop that nationality if it didn't involve dropping a lot of money. Calling me an expat feels like I have more connection to my birth country than I do and I'm not sure how calling myself an immigrant would equate me at all with refugees. Even when an immigrant leaves with few belongings, little money and bad circumstances behind as I did, it's really really not the same thing and I've not really met anyone who does that or any Brit yet who thinks my calling myself an immigrant means I was fleeing anything bad - even with the redneck accent. Even with the state of the US today, people generally assume I immigrated to study, work, or marriage which is good since that is why most people do.

@escorpion

I am also raising a child abroad. Here I have seen coca cola in babies bottles. Most children would have drank fizzy pop by age 1. Also tea is in many cases for children biscuits and milk or more pop. Babies are wrapped up in fleecey layers even in the height of summer 34 degrees. It is frowned upon if children are bare foot or go out in the rain. Should I adopt these measures just because it is the culture? I mean of course we can meet half way or adapt to certain scenarios but I don't think I could ever ply my three year old with junk and coca cola.

That's not what OP is saying

Are you wilfully misunderstanding her? No one cares what you feed your dc, just don't expect others to follow your method.

On the cola in baby bottles I've seen that regularly in the town centre of a UK seaside town I used to live in (British families). I don't think that's a national norm, it's a certain social group - people see one another doing things and think they're okay, and they become a normal thing in that social circle, which gets wider as acquaintances pass habits or norms on...

I would be surprised if there was an entire country where everyone, or most people, gave babies bottles of cola...

When mine were small, for work reasons we lived within a largely Mediterranean community, in the Middle East.

According to some of those women, I did everything wrong - from letting my children go barefoot, to not dressing them 'properly' - (dresses and shoes and socks), letting them get dirty, to taking them swimming when very little (dangerous and they might catch cold) - and not starting potty training at 12 months.

As for me swimming when pregnant, heaven help us - 'Your bones will open and you'll lose the baby.' Also, if I kept on carrying my not far off 3 year old when heavily pregnant, my baby would be born with a broken arm.

Criticism of other parenting styles is hardly just a Brit thing.

When you bring up your DC in a different country/culture, the experience allows you to question your own assumptions and, if you think about it analytically, to reach a happy compromise in which your DC are parented in the best of both worlds.

Silvercuckoo
There was a speech from one of Irish politicians where they called Irish citizens working in America without permits "undocumented expats". Because they clearly cannot be "illegal immigrants", this will equate them with... people who are less white

irish-stand.com/
Irish Stand is a grassroots movement devoted to civil rights protection for all immigrants. Ireland’s history of migration and overcoming discrimination positions it uniquely as a nation that understands and is familiar with division and borders. We believe in compassionate resistance to hateful rhetoric and seek to support vulnerable communities under threat through active campaigning.

If you are implying that Irish politicians are racist when it comes to immigration to the US, or think Irish people should be allowed in while others should be shut out, or that they pander in any way to the current anti-immigration policies, you need to think again.

The danger with normalising the terminology of illegality that is used by the American Right is that it is a weapon that can be and is used against all immigrants.

Irish immigrant groups in the US have been very vocal in opposition to the current anti-immigrant climate, the border wall, etc. in the US.

The Irish government along with other governments has always campaigned for exemptions for their own immigrants and in favour of general immigration reform in the US, for the benefit of all.

Irish people in the US are well aware of the privilege that Irish origin gives them, and also aware of the barefaced hypocrisy of many Americans on the topic of immigration. I myself have been told, 'But you're OK, you're Irish, you're practically one of us...'

irish-stand.com/take-action-immigration/

You only have to experience other countries to know there are cultural norms when it comes to parenting.

British children and teenagers are THE worst I have ever seen so whats that “british standard of parenting” or “british education is better”? Somebody is sleeping in a deep illussion . And yes very short sighted and snobby to go abroad and imagine Brits have the most perfrct way of parenting... not really.

Any specific examples?

This really isn't a british thing, more a people thing.
I've had very strange / outraged looks for using reins on my toddler abroad.