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AIBU?

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Original poster

Being prayed for

605 replies

BuckingFrolics · 22/04/2019 09:17

I'm an atheist and my DM knows this - indeed she and my DF raised me as one. She "found god" when my DF left in my early teens

She says she prays for me.

AIBU to tell her to stop, as I find it offensive?

OP posts:
Hushnownobodycares · 28/04/2019 09:22

I think you were right the first time...

So subjective views are as valid as evaluating objective evidence?

WhatisFreddoingnow · 28/04/2019 09:26

This thread has got a bit crazy and I haven't read it all since I last posted. Don't even know what page it was on!

I just wanted to say, personally, my faith is a combination of theological study, reason, logic, personal experience and absolutely undoubtedly 'hearing my Lord' s voice' to know him. I think this helped to grow a tiny much-ignored spark of belief in 'there's possibly something higher, but not sure. Probably not' into a fire of faith. My choice came from choosing to listen and investigate further. Being open-minded.

However, I wouldnt have been able to only talked myself into having faith. It would have been far too fragile and never lasted. But study has helped my faith to strengthen through challenging it. Catholicism is not an ignorant faith.

I suppose that I could set about trying to destroy that faith inside me (God has give me me free will after all) just as I could destroy other relationships in my life. I suspect that the spark would remain even if I'm not aware of it anymore.

birdflyinghigh · 28/04/2019 10:10

So subjective views are as valid as evaluating objective evidence?

No, evidence is very rarely purely objective. Not that conclusions cannot ever be reached but that biases and priors must always be acknowledged. Which people often do not get an appreciation of unless they are conducting the research or looking at the original studies. Which people rarely do and cannot do for every case scenario. So they are placing their trust in the conclusions other people have made. Look at how algorithms are used and how mistakes have been made.

Added to this (subjective) instinctive views on things can be surprisingly correct. We have amazing inbuilt skills that there is no complete explanation for yet.

BastianBux · 28/04/2019 10:49

If you have a choice, you have two or more valid (to you) options. If one of those "options" is not valid to you, then you have no choice but to go with the other one. I didn't choose not to believe in God, since the existence of a God was not a valid option to me. There wasn't a moment where I could have chosen God.

I am confused about "choosing" beliefs. Beliefs often lack evidence, otherwise they would become "known", yet many religious people claim to have had direct personal experiences with God, so surely you "know" he exists, rather than believe he exists?

Of course those who say they haven't had a personal experience with Him, that would cause their belief to become a "know", and who also accept scientific knowledge and lack of objective data about God, are really the only people who can be said to have "chosen" God - but to fly in the face of the objective in favour of subjectivity would be foolish if you didn't already believe He could exist.

I guess I don't think you can choose a belief. You can choose to consider options, but ultimately you're going to be swayed by facts unless you already have a strong belief regarding His possible existence.

BastianBux · 28/04/2019 11:05

You could do the whole "knowledge is a True Justified Belief" thing.

So did they "know" the earth is flat? They certaintly believed it and could justify it with science of the time, but it wasn't true.

If you guess a question on an exam and get it right, did you know it? No, you could say, because you didn't believe it was the right answer and it wasn't justified.

Can you justify a false belief? Certaintly, you see it every day.

So some argue you need to believe what you are saying is true, be able to justify why you believe it, but also have that justified belief correspond validly with the facts of the external world, in order to claim you "know" a certain thing.

Now, you could argue you can't "know" either way if God exists, due to the nature of God. It cannot be proven that he does or does not exist technically. So if you want you could say both sides have Justified Beliefs, but which side is more Justified? The one relying on subjective evidence or objective research? Now while the objective research hasn't proven God doesn't exist, and you could say no test ever could (how can you prove something otherworldly in nature doesn't exist? I cannot prove unicorns don't exist, I can just say nobody has proven it to exist) but I'd say the scientific framework of viewing the world and what exists has far more JTB's attached to it than the spiritual at this point.

birdflyinghigh · 28/04/2019 11:07

Bastian, how do you decide on the validity of options? If you've no data available that is directly applicable to your personal situation?

Beliefs often lack evidence
You see, I would say, beliefs lack completely irrefutable evidence. Which includes a lot! Which probably explains a lot about my perspective. It means I can recognise and acknowledge the degree of faith needed just for everyday life. For everyone, but this faith is not always placed in God.

GottenGottenGotten · 28/04/2019 11:11

I am confused about "choosing" beliefs. Beliefs often lack evidence, otherwise they would become "known"

But that's exactly why its a choice. I don't believe my rug is red, because I can see that it is, I could chose to believe its blue but there's no evidence for that. The fact that religion is a choice is entirely due to the lack of evidence. People are choosing to think god is real.

BastianBux · 28/04/2019 11:14

People are choosing to think god is real.

I'm not sure they are. If they are choosing to think God is real, then they could equally choose to just stop thinking God is real, due to the evidence. They don't, because their strong beliefs prevent that choice being made.

birdflyinghigh · 28/04/2019 11:15

It cannot be proven that he does or does not exist technically.

So at this point a decision can be made. How do you want to find an answer? I decided to actively seek God and build my faith according to Christian teachings. You, I presume, pursued the answer using the intellectual means available to you. I am not sorry I decided to seek God and make Him an integral part of my life.

birdflyinghigh · 28/04/2019 11:15

The decision I talk of is a choice.

birdflyinghigh · 28/04/2019 11:17

Bastian and if beliefs inform actions, do you believe we've no free will?

BastianBux · 28/04/2019 11:18

don't believe my rug is red, because I can see that it is, I could chose to believe its blue but there's no evidence for that

Could you honestly choose to belief a rug was blue when you can clearly see in fact it is red? I don't think so. How would you convince yourself it was blue when it's there right in front of you.

BastianBux · 28/04/2019 11:21

I decided to actively seek God is that the same thing as choosing to believe in Him? Would you actively seek something unless you already believed in the possibility of it existing, e.g. you already had some form of faith in the spiritual world

Honestly my thoughts are just really jumbled with this so I'm probably contradicting myself horrible Grin

BastianBux · 28/04/2019 11:21

*horribly

birdflyinghigh · 28/04/2019 11:24

I don't believe my rug is red, because I can see that it is

But your eyes could be dysfunctioning. The only way to be absolutely sure would be to get consensus. But then there actually can be differences across cultures in people's sensory perceptions and language. So you would need a larger consensus which is representative across different cultures. I was reading about a woman whose own language had no word for pink. She had difficulties distinguishing that colour from red.

birdflyinghigh · 28/04/2019 11:26

Would you actively seek something unless you already believed in the possibility of it existing, e.g. you already had some form of faith in the spiritual world

Well, I can say already did have faith in the possibility of God's existence, then. But I also believe in free will. I could have chosen to nurture that belief or not.

birdflyinghigh · 28/04/2019 11:30

Could you honestly choose to belief a rug was blue when you can clearly see in fact it is red? I don't think so. How would you convince yourself it was blue when it's there right in front of you.

You could if consensus told you it was blue and you then in turn believed your eyes were dysfunctional.

Hushnownobodycares · 28/04/2019 11:53

Added to this (subjective) instinctive views on things can be surprisingly correct.

Well my instinctive view even as a child who couldn't articulate it was that it all sounded a little far fetched and unlikely so by your definition I'm at least as likely to be correct as anyone who jumps the other way.

We have amazing inbuilt skills that there is no complete explanation for yet

Can you elaborate on these?

GottenGottenGotten · 28/04/2019 11:57

You are picking on the bit of the analogy that doesn't translate well. There isn't evidence for or against god, nobody can prove his existence or not. So it would be more like a blind person hearing one person describe their rug as green and another describing it as blue, and choosing to believe it is green.

birdflyinghigh · 28/04/2019 12:11

Can you elaborate on these?

People sensing danger. People who can perform calculus quicker and more efficiently than computers. I'm sure you'll find various surprising studies if you cared to look. One magazine article here:

www.zmescience.com/research/studies/human-precognition-real-science-study-finds-04143122/

BastianBux · 28/04/2019 12:12

So it would be more like a blind person hearing one person describe their rug as green and another describing it as blue, and choosing to believe it is green

Wouldn't you go for the person who had already proven a whole host of other stuff in the world, than one that hadn't?

birdflyinghigh · 28/04/2019 12:21

You are picking on the bit of the analogy that doesn't translate well.

My point is that human sensory perceptions are variable therefore not completely reliable and that there are individual differences in perception and differences in perception between cultures. Yet people tend to be swayed by even a small consensus. That is a belief based decision just as much as choosing to trust your own or a single other person's perceptions is. Because the amount of belief cannot really be quantified. How would you measure it?

birdflyinghigh · 28/04/2019 12:28

Well my instinctive view even as a child who couldn't articulate it was that it all sounded a little far fetched and unlikely

So it sounds like you had a belief from very being very small. You hadn't sought to test it yet but when you applied your own tests your conclusions confirmed your existing belief. Unsurprisingly.

Hushnownobodycares · 28/04/2019 12:30

People sensing danger.
Sensing danger is a primal brain response to subconsciously noted cues. Nothing miraculous or unaccounted for there.

I'm sure you'll find various surprising studies if you cared to look

I don't care to look. I didn't say it.

Hushnownobodycares · 28/04/2019 12:36

So it sounds like you had a belief from very being very small. You hadn't sought to test it yet but when you applied your own tests your conclusions confirmed your existing belief

Not a belief. An instinct. Which is what you claim can be 'surprisingly correct'.

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