It’s like a parallel universe

[Imustbemad00]

Inspired by a few threads recently about money. Specifically money in London. I’m shocked at how many people seem to think you need to be rich to live in London (£100k per year is rich to me) and how many people think £100k is not a lot in London.
Why is this specific to London?Other than house prices?
Just to put it into perspective, I’m a single parent with 2 children living in zone 1 London. I take home £22000.
Admittedly, cheap rent at £650pcm. But we manage. Obviously we’re not well off, can’t afford fancy holidays, buying clothes for summer at the moment is a struggle, have no savings, can’t afford to decorate. But we have what we need, the occasional treat, short break
Most people I know locally are in similar positions. But I suppose people have a tendency to mix with their own kind.
I just find this ‘other london’ bizarre. The London where you need 100k to barely get by

My private rent on a one bed place, in zone 2 is a grand a month more than your rent. I'd not be able to make ends meet on 22k.

Apart from housing costs, I don't think London is more expensive than anywhere else is it? I know alcoholic drinks cost less outside of London in bars and pubs but what else?

I live in London but we are lucky and have a very small mortgage. We don't have a huge income but manage.

In some aspects, London is great. Buses are free for kids and very frequent which is good and saves money. Free museums, lots of parks etc

Yes of course we need nurses and cleaner and the other professions someone mentioned, and no I'm not saying that we should ship everyone off to the middles.

My point is that there are thousands of families who cannot house themselves all over the country.

A 2 bed flat for one family in zone 1 is three 2 bed houses for three families elsewhere.

People seem hell bent on being offended.

At the end of the day, 22k would not cover rent on a 2 bed flat in zone 1, so the Ops point that she can manage in central London on this is misleading. She can afford it because her rent is heavily reduced by SH.

Housing aside I agree it's easier to have a nice life in London on a low income than it is elsewhere.

Take home pay on £22,000 is £1541 pcm. After her rent, OP is living on £891 pcm and supporting two children. She will be entitled to child benefit and maybe some tax credits (I don't know). She is lucky to live in London Zone 1 and has acknowledged that, but what would you rather? The last social housing properties in London be sold off so that no SH tenants live in the centre of the capital?

Without reading the entire thread, the simple fact is that you can’t compare the lifestyles or financial pressures of someone on a £650pcm zone 1 lifetime social housing tenancy on a low income to a homeowner/private rent paying with a reasonably high income in any London zone.

Not only does OP pay only £650 a month, she presumably receives tops ups so income is actually higher than £22k. Then her travel will be significantly lower than someone in, say zone 6 (only price they can afford the market rent/mortgage). And won’t need as many hours childcare, won’t have to pay for household maintenance etc.

It’s just not possible to say ‘I manage to live on £22k in zone 1, so can’t see how other need £100k’. It just isn’t as simple as that.

If you earn £100k between you take home about £5.5k without paying in to a pension. Most people in professional jobs do pay into a pension so lets call it £5k.

I know we were talking London, I'm going slightly on a tangent as I live in the Home Counties and commute in...

You pay a mortgage on a 3 bed family home which is probably £2k or so.

You both commute into London, the monthly train/tube fair is c. £900.

Parking at the train station is c. £160 assuming you can go in and back at the same time and don't need to use 2 cars.

One child in nursery every day is about £1.5k. Let's assume the other child gets wraparound care with grandparents.

Council tax is c£275
Two mobile phones £70
Car insurance and tax £70
Utilities £100
Groceries £400
Virgin/Sky/internet £50
Home insurance £30
Pet insurance £40

So already you're basically out of money, so let's say you scrimp and save a bit off groceries, phone bills etc for a cheap week away.

You're probably leaving the house at 7-7.30am, getting home at 7.30pm.

At the end of the day you live in an average 3 bed semi, in an 'okay' area, share one car and are still scraping by.

I wouldn't say that was "rich". Not poverty by any means but definitely not rich.

£650pcm for rent! In zone 1!

I pay way more, I'm not even in London and it's also social housing and a flat. Jeez.

I accept the biscuit and “up the arse” wasn’t particularly polite.

But I think it’s somewhat OTT pearl to describe me as repellent and disgustingly vicious...

I don’t think people on 100k are the bread line for a moment but frankly it pisses me off to have people blithely state they don’t understand how anyone needs money to live in London, without recognising they don’t need lots of money to live in London because they are being heavily subsidised.

Also...it's all relative.

What 'rich' means to people differs depending on what you're surrounded by.

I grew up close to the poverty line but am now a high earner.

I don't think I'm 'rich' because I know so many people who earn so much more than me. However often I remind myself to give my head a wobble because in the sense of comparing to the 'average person' I am rich....if I'd never grown up in poverty and in a poor area I probably wouldn't ever think about that though. What I earn would just be 'normal'.

For someone to classify as rich to me now they'd need to be living in a 5-6+ Bedroom house with an acre+ of land (here that's £1m+). Nice cars fully paid up. 3+ luxury holidays a year. Cleaner and gardener.

I suspect this is quite a bit higher than I would have thought of as 'rich' back in Stoke.

Anyone who is buying a three bed semi in London is rich.

Anyone who is buying a three bed semi in London is rich

I just don't even know where to start.

That statement is total nonsense

£650pcm is rent that some people can only dream of, even up here in the north East never mind London. I'm afraid you have no argument OP - if you paid usual London rent for zone 1 I can't imagine you'd be managing at all. It's a bit disingenuous to start a thread slagging people off for finding things a struggle when you actually have no idea what it's like for them given that your living costs are so low in comparison.

Admittedly, cheap rent at £650pcm.

Hahahahaha!

That is all.

You must realise that your situation is not usual?

When I first moved to London 6 years ago I made 20k. For that I rented a pest infested room that was literally twice the size of a double bed, on the border of zone 1/2 for 650 a month. This was the best rental property I found available. After bills, pension, student loan and all of that I often chose walking the hour and a half to work and back so I could have more than a tin of ravioli for my dinner.

Wiltshire may very well cost the same as London for food and going out, I couldn’t say but it doesn’t with housing so £100k will go further. These threads make me laugh though, London is routinely cited as one of the most expensive cities in the world to live yet you’d think every other town and city in the UK is the same according to Mumsnet.. There are simply parts of London where £100k won’t afford a lavish lifestyle but like I said you can easily live comfortably in less ‘nice’on £100k.

I wish people would stop saying it’s rare or unusual!

Even in flipping Kensington and Chelsea 25% of housing is social housing!
www.rbkc.gov.uk/housing/social-housing/local-housing-information

That’s one in four households!
Other boroughs like mine, the figure is even higher.
This is not rare

I think OP is making a weak point very badly. Not only is she very lucky to get a home nearly all paid for, but maintains that if she was paid thousands more a month, she would have trouble spending it?

I suppose everyone gets used to their income, and can't imagine having so much extra that they wouldn't know what to do with it.
But I think we all know how that works out.

we need more posts showing the outgoings of someone on £100k

Wiltshire may very well cost the same as London for food and going out, I couldn’t say but it doesn’t with housing so £100k will go further.

I think the poster was explaining that things cost more in London, so you need 100k just to do normal things (cinema and pizza) and gave examples of prices like cinema tickets at £15. I was just saying that everyone around here (prob 90% at least) are on low wages, and yet we've got 'London prices'. No one here (or barely anyone) would be on 100k. So nothing to go further because of the house prices.

@wheresmymojo but the couple you describe are choosing that situation for themselves. Nobody has to spend 2k on a mortgage, or £900 on commuting costs.

So many people on MN insist they have to live and work within commuting distance of London - why?

That flat would cost you 2k or more at market rates OP. That would rather change the equation, no?

Plus they were talking about 100k pre-tax, ie 60k ish take home, you're talking about 40k take home to be comfortable in a flat that's costing you less than the average privately rented bedroom in a shared home in zone 3.

we need more posts showing the outgoings of someone on £100k

This is mumsnet. We really don't. There are hundreds of posts about how the top 2% of earners are actually "just about managing". If you have a hankering for them, just search them up.

This is mumsnet. We really don't. There are hundreds of posts about how the top 2% of earners are actually "just about managing". If you have a hankering for them, just search them up.

Haha, yes, this is so true

I have family currently renting in London OP and they are paying much more rent than you for a studio flat in zone 4. Your very cheap housing means you are not the norm but have your own parallel life.