To leave one niece out?

[HipHipHippoo]

My sister has 3 DDs aged 12, 7 and 2. I have posted before about how the 12 yo is incredibly mean to her siblings, particularly 7 yo who has autism (not sure how to link to previous posts)

We have been away camping this week together with my DC and some incidents make me very angry/irritated with 12 yo niece.

For example:

She knows 7 yo is extremely particular about food - she barely eats and is underweight. 12 yo has stopped 7 yo eating at least 3 meals this week - by purposely knocking her plate across the table so her food would touch, by going on at her to try her meal and putting some of it on her plate (making 7 yo sick) and by coughing all over her food

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer. For example, I'll say to my DC "Sophie, please stop messing with the tent zips" and DN will say "I'm not messing with them!" even though their names sound nothing alike. She does this constantly

7 yo niece loves my dogs but every time they go near her, 12 yo calls them away so she can't stroke them

We went to some arcades and 12 yo won something she has zero interest in but that she knows 7 yo would adore. 7 yo never asks for anything and told her how lucky she was to win it. 12 yo made a big show of how she didn't want it so was going to give it away, making 7 yo think it would be to her...then gave it to a stranger and smiled smugly straight at 7 yo as she did so

Whenever 7 yo is sitting with or chatting to her mum, 12 yo will call her away then jump in her spot. 12 yo even races to get next to her mum before 2yo then gloats that she has Mummys hand

She corrects or argues with everyone constantly. My DC remarked it was a full moon and she insisted it was only 3/4 despite it clearly being fucking full! She asked where her bag was and I said on her sleeping bag, she kept saying no it isn't- I'm looking and it definitely isn't. It was very slightly off the sleeping bag but she could clearly see it, she just had to argue!

She is constantly after food, drinks and wanting to be bought stuff. She sulks and spoils it if anyone else gets a say in what they want to do and her mood brings everyone down.

I'm taking my DC camping in the summer and was going to offer to take my nieces too to give my sister a break but I really don't want to take 12 yo. I think her sisters would flourish with some time away from her, and that she needs to learn at some point that her behaviour is intolerable and that people won't want to spend time with her if she behaves in this way. However, taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

*"Her parents never call her out on it or enforce any consequences".
Her parents are clearly the problem then.

It sounds as if she is attention-seeking and will do anything she can to get a reaction. Her behaviour will probably escalate too if her parents don't do anything about it now.

Was she overlooked when at 5 years old another baby came into her family and took attention away from her? She may well feel abandoned and unloved if she doesn't get a response even when she misbehaves like this. She is clearly jealous of her younger siblings.

I think I would talk to my sister about her and take away the two younger nieces so that she can spend quality time with her mum and dad. It may be that oldest niece needs some form of counselling to get to the bottom of her behavioural issues and resolve them.

Don't think if it as rewarding her with time with her mum. She should spend time with her mum as it sounds like your sister may be neglecting her daughter's emotional well-being. Her parents need help too as they are not parenting properly.

I feel sorry for the 12yo. She clearly feels displaced. Not jealous, displaced. Pushed lower and lower down the pecking order. Probably thinks her family cares more about the 7yo and the 2yo more than her.

Has anyone ever given her the go ahead to say how she truly feels about her sister's autism? Perhaps the sister displays some traits which she feels are annoying or unbearable. Remember she's only 12, she really doesn't have the capacity to understand her sister's behaviours yet. Maybe she's tried to say how she feels but was told she was horrible for thinking that way or told to 'grow up' when what she really needed was coping strategies and understanding.

Add a crying baby which will turn into an irritating, loud toddler. Again, is she ever told 'Listen love, I know it's annoying but it won't be for long'?.

This girl is crying out to be heard and understood. I get the impression that her feelings about her siblings are dismissed. Why not give her the chance to say 'I find it really irritating when X does Y' and listen to what she is saying, whilst giving some solid advice on how to cope? Because simply saying 'but don't you love your sister' or 'but X is only a baby, they can't help it' really won't help.

Takethebiscuit obviously can't accept that she has taken my comments out of context.

Fair enough.

@SchadenfreudePersonified

Your exact words were I have no tolerance of spiteful behaviour and would probably have said something long before now and caused a family rift that would never be repaired. I fail to see how I have taken your words out of context

It's very strange that one on one attention from her mum is seen as some kind of reward which should be contingent on good behaviour. Every child needs positive attention however badly they're behaving (in fact bad behaviour is often a sign they're not getting enough). There can be all kinds of consequences for bad behaviour but time with your parents shouldn't be one of them.

I would take her and when she decides to act up I’d pull her to one side and tell her you’ve had enough of her behaviour and it’s not going to be tolerated anymore and if she wants to behave like a naughty child she will get treated like one and enforce a punishment of time out or no screen time or whatever suits. Or even have her do some washing up after teas finished as a punishment while the rest go and play. Some of her behaviour you have detailed isn’t too bad it sounds like she’s just a bit annoying possibly a bit too giddy but the part where she’s sabotaging her sisters meal is cruel and if that was my niece she would have got a telling off from me. Do you feel like you can’t say anything to her in front of her mum?

I had stuck through the second part of the sentence (and caused a family rift that would never be repaired) which clearly indicates that I did NOT recommend that course of action. (And that it was tongue-in-cheek).

But by all means, put your own spin on it.

Emily1091

So you’re idea is to take the niece away, not because her aunt wants to take her/give her neice’s a nice time. Nor is it to give her sister a break. No, the main purpose of which is to wait for her to do something so that OP can be the one to punish her? And to do so at a time and place where she is away from her parents.

And that will help how, exactly? If her parents don’t see an issue, nothing will change. If no-one bothers to try and work out why she’s behaving this way then nothing will change. Do what is the point? Sounds a lot like engineering an opportunity to bully/punish a 12 year old, to me. Which is pretty dispicable in all honesty.

And all without having done the sensible thing- raising any concerns with her parents. Just plough ahead with pre-meditated plans to punish her behaviour. Sure fire way of causing more problems than already exist.

I remember your previous posts OP. Following with interest as your 12yo DN sounds unfortunately similar to my 8yo DS1. He is, often, very hard to like. DS2, OTOH, is lovely (and possibly autistic - TBC).

I try hard to be fair to both of them, but do worry that DS1 can see that it's more of an effort with him and that that makes it all worse....

It sounds hard for everyone concerned

I saw this today and think it demonstrates what myself and PP have been saying about your niece having emotional needs that are not being met and that her behaviour is indicative of this.

The things that struck me OP were this

1. you see her responding to everything as her being difficult. But maybe she is so used to being the scapegoat she assumes it is about her and responds

2. she is always seen to have to defer to her sister. She won a prize and rather than being able to enjoy it everyone’s thought were she should give it away to her sister - she is second best again

3. the desire to have everything set up correctly (bag placement etc) is something which seems to be seen negatively rather than just part of her

You sound be awful about her quite bullying actually and clearly favour her sislets which causes a lot of this

She is being equally failed by the adults in her lif

I do think it seems there's a pattern where her sister's sensory difficulties for example are understood as part of her autism (which is great) and she receives lots of visible support to help her with those. Any elements though of her sister's character (for example having to be precise about everything and put it in it's proper place) which may or may not be part of her personality or her own neurodiversity are treated as evidence that she's a nasty person intrinsically. She's probably stuck in the role of difficult older sister now as it's how she gets attention and also because her own emotional needs aren't being met.

Has anyone ever given her the go ahead to say how she truly feels about her sister's autism? Perhaps the sister displays some traits which she feels are annoying or unbearable.

even if she said she didn't like her sister's ASD and certain behaviours (and believe me, not everyone on the spectrum is 'annoying' and 'unbearable') , what difference would it make? her sister has ASD wether she likes it it not and being autistic is not something she chose to be. Sometimes, you just have to accept things as they are.

At 12, she should understand that. my 8 year old has a greater understanding of her older sister's severe Asd/learning diffs - so I know this is completely possible to bring up a sibling to be understanding and supportive of a siblings SN instead of being a bully.

I would not tolerate this kind of behaviour from my NT child towards her sister with autism. Leave the 12 year old at home - she really doesn't sound nice.

'I would take her and when she decides to act up I’d pull her to one side and tell her you’ve had enough of her behaviour and it’s not going to be tolerated anymore and if she wants to behave like a naughty child she will get treated like one and enforce a punishment of time out or no screen time or whatever suits. Or even have her do some washing up after teas finished as a punishment while the rest go and play.'

Jesus wept.

OP, if you are in any way tempted to follow this advice then please, for the love of god, leave the poor girl at home with her Mum.

I honestly despair...

Has she been assessed??

That is more important than the camping trip. A lot of your post is like reading a textbook of behaviour that I would associate with what wad previously called aspergers.
The repeating phrases and not understanding social situations. The perceived nastiness, the meltdowndls after attending a noisy event.

Apologies if I am wrong but before calling her names and assuming that she is being a pain, I would suggest having an assessment done on her. Then you will know where you stand with regards setting limits. Good luck.

3luck

not everyone who is a bully needs an assessment of some sort. Some people (incl kids) are just mean.
Being an arse is certainly not a symptom of ASD/Asperger's. Not sure why posters on MN always like to suggest that someone has ASD if they are described as rude/mean/etc.

also, you don't just get an assessment. It's a battle to be referred, you then wait for months often year for an assessment. And it's her niece. Assessment/referrals would be up to the parents and as they have already one child with ASD, I'd suspect they are more clued up about it than posters on here.

rainbow

I agree that you can and should teach a child about their siblings ASD (or any other disability) and that it’s not something they chose, nor can they always control their reaction or behaviours. Therefor, allowances have to be made.

Where I do disagree is that you cannot allow the child to express how they feel about the impact of their siblings disability on them “because it won’t change anything”. Obviously, it cannot change their siblings condition but it can help the child to work through things and to acknowledge that there is an impact on them, albeit not all negative and not deliberate.

I have seen first hand in my own family the impact of parents not meeting the needs of the NT sibling and always telling them to accept that their sibling would be put first, “you know x needs a/can’t do b/ doesn’t like c” that it wasn’t anybody’s fault and so on. Not out of malice- I think that because they were so caught up simply getting through each day. It meant the sibling in question spent a lot of time with other family members and is closer to grandparents than parents. There is still some resentment and the siblings aren’t close either. As a child the NT sibling did play up quite a bit- and it was largely attention seeking and wanting to be noticed, even if it was for all the wrong reasons (their own admission). Luckily, some of the other adults in their life recognised they weren’t simply an awful person who should know better, but a child who was struggling too.

I know the mother is upset that her eldest has a distant, though largely cordial, relationship with her. For example, when something really wonderful happened for them the first call they made was to grandparents and she only found out a little while later. She was really upset but the reason was simply that her DC wanted to tell the person he was most excited to share the news with. It wasn’t a deliberate slight, just a reflection of their relationship. It’s sad all round really, everyone has lost out.

My point being that allowing a child to acknowledge having a sibling with special or additional needs is not 100% positive and can have negative aspects whilst also showing the good points is important. As is making time for them and sometimes putting them first.

I think OP has a beef with her sister.

All these unhealthy sibling dynamics and an OP who is too overinvolved in those dynamics for a healthy adult to be. I reckon it all started when OP and her sister were little and that is why OP cannot bear how her sister deals with her children.

Being an arse is certainly not a symptom of ASD/Asperger's. Not sure why posters on MN always like to suggest that someone has ASD if they are described as rude/mean/etc

No one has said that being an arse is a symptom of ASD but they have said that this child has unmet needs and, given the family history of ASD and related conditions, it could be worth considering that perhaps these unmet needs are symptomatic of an undiagnosed spectrum condition.

Yes but you said it far better than I did thank you.

I would suggest having an assessment done on her

That is not in the op’s gift at all. It is between the girl, her doctors and her parents the op can hardly just take her to the doctors and demand they assess her even though she isn’t the parent and so far has as an aunt indulged petty arguments about the moon and tried to give her things away to the younger sibling.

There's always one, isn't there.

Not one person has suggested that being an arse or being nasty to your siblings are symptoms of ASD

The OP has described a significant number of behaviours that are closely linked with ASD. Hundreds of girls go without diagnoses because their presentation is subtle and can appear to be very different from diagnosed siblings.

Sometimes, as a parent, we can be falsely reassured by these differences in presentation. I certainly was for quite a while.

The fact that neurodevelopmental assessments are difficult to trigger and request would need to come from the parents is not a good reason for the OP to be left unaware that her DN is presenting in this way.