To leave one niece out?

[HipHipHippoo]

My sister has 3 DDs aged 12, 7 and 2. I have posted before about how the 12 yo is incredibly mean to her siblings, particularly 7 yo who has autism (not sure how to link to previous posts)

We have been away camping this week together with my DC and some incidents make me very angry/irritated with 12 yo niece.

For example:

She knows 7 yo is extremely particular about food - she barely eats and is underweight. 12 yo has stopped 7 yo eating at least 3 meals this week - by purposely knocking her plate across the table so her food would touch, by going on at her to try her meal and putting some of it on her plate (making 7 yo sick) and by coughing all over her food

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer. For example, I'll say to my DC "Sophie, please stop messing with the tent zips" and DN will say "I'm not messing with them!" even though their names sound nothing alike. She does this constantly

7 yo niece loves my dogs but every time they go near her, 12 yo calls them away so she can't stroke them

We went to some arcades and 12 yo won something she has zero interest in but that she knows 7 yo would adore. 7 yo never asks for anything and told her how lucky she was to win it. 12 yo made a big show of how she didn't want it so was going to give it away, making 7 yo think it would be to her...then gave it to a stranger and smiled smugly straight at 7 yo as she did so

Whenever 7 yo is sitting with or chatting to her mum, 12 yo will call her away then jump in her spot. 12 yo even races to get next to her mum before 2yo then gloats that she has Mummys hand

She corrects or argues with everyone constantly. My DC remarked it was a full moon and she insisted it was only 3/4 despite it clearly being fucking full! She asked where her bag was and I said on her sleeping bag, she kept saying no it isn't- I'm looking and it definitely isn't. It was very slightly off the sleeping bag but she could clearly see it, she just had to argue!

She is constantly after food, drinks and wanting to be bought stuff. She sulks and spoils it if anyone else gets a say in what they want to do and her mood brings everyone down.

I'm taking my DC camping in the summer and was going to offer to take my nieces too to give my sister a break but I really don't want to take 12 yo. I think her sisters would flourish with some time away from her, and that she needs to learn at some point that her behaviour is intolerable and that people won't want to spend time with her if she behaves in this way. However, taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

😯 seriously? I know it’s mn but way judgemental

Sorry, that was in response to ewits about the other thread

In this post- it sounds horrible giving a toy away- but maybe she would have secretly liked to keep it? if, as soon as she won it, the younger child was saying 'oh I love xyz!' the older girl knew she would be pressured into handing it over-I can imagine that feeling annoying and unfair.

Exactly. And the type of thing people don't notice or value if she does but will tell her off for not doing or pressure her into doing it.

It might have been a stupid toy, but how much has she had to give up so far?

Like the food, I bet all the adults attention focus on the second child's eating.

A pp said it was best to take them all out together. I don't think so.

It's not rewarding the eldest, but I think and many pps are recognising this too, that the children do need time apart. It benefits both the eldest and the youngest in the long run.
No favouritism. Take one at a time or the eldest separately.

As said previously, encourage the parents to seek help to improve the relationship between siblings. But the focus shouldn't necessarily be on getting DD1 to behave, but it might be on how to improve her self esteem.

To everyone who is saying that their girl might have problems of her own - we, maybe she has.

But maybe she is just a spoiled, entitled little horror.

They exist, too.

i think you sound toxic OP. You need to take a good hard look at yourself. Shes twelve and she still needs guidance and love even when you feel like she doesnt deserve it. I think you are the spiteful one, and your sister doesnt need your judgement over her young daughter.

maybe she is just a spoiled, entitled little horror. They exist, too.

They do but before writing a 12yo child off as a spoiled, entitled little horror do you not think they should explore whether there is a reason for her behaviour?

Your DN is behaving exactly like a child on the autism spectrum whose needs aren't being met, whose anxiety is high and whose self-esteem at absolute rock bottom.

The only way she can experience positive emotions is to place herself above her siblings in some pathetic competition for attention and importance.

Criticising her and punishing her will simply make her feel worse and escalate her behaviour.

Until she gets the support she needs and begins to understand the root of her own challenges and emotions, nothing will get better.

Your desire to make her parents sanction her and make her see how horrible she is will only make matters worse for everyone. Please don't go any further down that route.

If you can find it in your heart to spend time with her unpicking her experiences, her feelings towards her mother and her siblings and listening properly to how it feels to be her, please try it. You may be the only person in a position to help her. If you can't offer that, back off and let her parents manage her the best way they know how, whether you agree with it or not.

Shes the first born, was an only child and had her mums undivided attention for the best part of 3 years. At 12 she can now do things by herself, and doesnt need to be supervised as such anymore.

Throw in a 7 year old with learning difficulties, and a 2 year old that due to age needs undivided attention.

I suspect 12yo is just feeling a little left behind by mum. Kids act our for attention, something she naturally iant getting as much of anymore.

I have a cousin who acts in the same way and annoya everyone, but the more you get annoyed the more she acts out. I've taken her out on her own a few times she she is nothing but golden. Point being, I think when you just take it in your stride and do your best to include her in things you do, but draw a line behaviour wise, then she's going to feel more loved and not act put so much.

Pushing her away and making her feels unworthy isn't going to make her behave. Quite the opposite.

I agree with those posters who wonder whether your niece is actually craving attention and has found an effective, if unpleasant and unkind, way of eliciting it.

I imagine there’s some hormones rushing around too, which won’t help matters.

None of this excuses her behaviour but if you want it to change you need to understand the reasons for the behaviour. I doubt simply punishing her will solve the problem. Especially if nothing changes at home/ her issues aren’t addressed. All that will have happened is that you might feel a bit better about having made your point. Would your niece even link her not being invited with your disapproval of her? If not, you won’t have “taught her” anything at all.

It’s one thing to say “due to nieces behaviour, I don’t feel able to take her to x”. Up to her parents to decide what to do with that information and absolutely your right to decide you can’t tolerate her behaviour, so are not happy to take her away. It’s quite another thing to say “I don’t like the way Niece treats her siblings, so to teach her a lesson I will take her siblings camping but will not invite her”. That’s really not your place.

Lastly, do her parents think there is a problem? If not, i’d tread carefully if I were you- wading in and seeking to punish someone’s else’s child (even a relation) where the parents don’t see an issue seldom ends well. Perhaps discuss it with your sister and see if they have any concerns first? Seems rather unwise and arrogant to unilaterally plan to punish/discipline someone else’s child without any discussion with their parents. As opposed to seeing a misdemeanour and chastising them at the time, which I think is different as it’s an on the spot thing, not something you’ve thought about and planned.

I suspect you may be over-stepping a few boundaries here and would row back on your plans to punish your niece until you’ve spoken to your sister.

Actually OP, having read your last thread too I would say you’re deep loathing of this girl is quite palpable and that means that I doubt you could have an objective view of her. I’m not saying there aren’t issues or that her behaviour is ok- it clearly isn’t- but I suspect this comes from being unhappy herself. But you are not the right person to be punishing her. I suspect she should not be left in your sole care as I doubt you would be able to treat her fairly.

She’s only a child and needs help to change her behaviour- but that comes from tackling the root cause not simply from punishment. She may be struggling with the attention being given to her siblings due to age (2 year old) and additional needs. She may always feel like the least loved/cared for child, the one whose wants are always last in the queue, the one expected to be “grown up” and put her siblings needs first. I’ve seen this in my own family- and sometimes it’s just the way it is, but resentment and jealousy can build. It can also cause low self-esteem and a need to control things around them. Again, i’ve seen this within my own family. Or, as others have said she could have additional needs herself (not necessarily ASD, could be traits or other neurodevopmental problems). Of course, there is a possibility that she is just going to be unpleasant because that’s her nature and her upbringing has not managed to counteract that- but at 12 years old I think she deserves the benefit of the doubt. “ few monsters are born that way, most are made that way” is often said and worth bearing in mind here (not calling your niece a monster as she sounds like a child who is struggling).

The horrible behaviour, the goading of her sister with ASD is extremely unpleasant and does need dealt with, but I would be very surprised if there were not a root cause which if addressed correctly could help resolve this behaviour. That doesn’t mean she should not be punished where appropriate, but I don’t think you are the appropriate person to do it. I suspect you’d find it a bit too satisfying

I think you should raise your issues with your sister and leave it at that.

It sounds like you really dislike the 12 year old. Kids can sometimes be literal and it comes across as if it's just as important for you to be "right" and "win" as it is for her. Her bag wasn't on the sleeping bag - why was it so important to you that she not point that out?

I really hope your sister declines your mean spirited offer. To me it is clear that the 12yo is craving attention and praise. Your blatant favouritism of her younger siblings really isn't going to help that.

taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

To clarify: you don't punish a child by refusing to let her have extra time with her mother, for the same reasons you don't punish a child by refusing to let her have a drink of water. Some needs are basic.

I agree, I wouldn't take her due to her behaviour, it sounds very nasty and devious. Yes the girl may have issues, her mum needs to get to the bottom of it and parent her.

Maybe alone time with mum is what they both need!

She corrects or argues with everyone constantly. My DC remarked it was a full moon and she insisted it was only 3/4 despite it clearly being fucking full! She asked where her bag was and I said on her sleeping bag, she kept saying no it isn't- I'm looking and it definitely isn't. It was very slightly off the sleeping bag but she could clearly see it, she just had to argue!

That's pretty classic ASC communication, for the kind of ASC which in the past would often have got an Asperger's diagnosis. Super-literal and no way to compromise or back down even from an adult, never mind another child. The less talkative more passive sweet natured kids tended to get HFA diagnoses instead. Dunno how the labels get distributed these days but it's all autism anyway. Your DSis may very well have two kids on the spectrum not one.

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer.

That too. Or at the very least your niece must be constantly on red alert to the things people say. Which is stressful and exhausting in itself even if it's not part of a bigger ASC picture.

Any positive behaviour is given tons of praise, but there really is very very little.

So does she really get as much praise and attention for eating normally (which is positive behaviour) as her sister gets for not eating normally? As much consideration for how her plate is laid out, as much satisfaction expressed when she finishes her meal or tries a new food? Does she get as much praise for doing other everyday things that she finds difficult and demanding, as her sisters get attention for doing ordinary things they find difficult - one because she has an obvious disability, the other because she is so young? Or are the ordinary things the eldest does taken for granted because she is so much older and more "normal"? If there is "very very little positive behaviour" to be seen then that's because you're looking in the wrong places and taking too much for granted. If she never gets a fuss made for finishing her own plate how much easier to get a fuss by stopping her sister finishing hers.

(Not sure why I'm bothering to say any of this. I'm going to get done over for armchair diagnosis and I'm not convinced the OP really wants to do anything but vent her own anger. Oh well.)

It sounds like you really dislike the 12 year old.

She doesn't sound a difficult child to dislike!

People (of whatever age) who constantly contradict/ have to be right/ need to be the centre of attention are bloody hard work, even when their other behaviour isn't so horrible.

OP - I would definitely take the other two away. They need a week of "not-being-picked-on" and as you oldest niece doesn't like to leave her mother anyway (in case the others get something she doesn't?) it seems the best option - you couldn't take her even if you wanted to.

I have no tolerance of spiteful behaviour and would probably have said something long before now and caused a family rift that would never be repaired.

Enjoy your holiday with the "littles" - and I'll bet they want to buy a present for their sister, rotten as she is to them.

This is a difficult one for me. A lot of the behaviour described sounds like my DD1 (10), who has attachment issues due to being adopted. She used to hurt DD2 (7) and me regularly and throws things and she also argues over the slightest thing.

My DM handles it by saying that DD2 can have one of the treats she brought with her but DD1 can’t. I’ve asked her not to do this, as DD1 has always been so jealous of DD2 (lots of friends, parties and play dates) and DD2 has always been prone to tease her.

DD1 is finally having therapy and things are improving, but dismissing her previous behaviour as ‘nasty’ (which is tempting, I was at the receiving end of her aggression) certainly won’t achieve any changes in her behaviour.

I don't think you should take the child purely because you appear to loathe her and see bad in every little thing she does. I'm sure there's more to it than this.

And yes, I read the other thread and thought the same there.

I’m afraid I think arguing with her about the moon sounds extremely childish. So what if it’s a full moon or three-quarters full. Better to just move on.

I'd be interested to hear your sisters side of things.

Ironically You have a not much younger 10 year old who races her sisters to the toilet and hides their teddies to upset them and undermines you. How is that different to your nieces poor behaviour?

You have a 5yo who pulls her siblings under water and kicks bites and argues over everything

You seem relectant to accept your nieces behaviour screams asd despute it running in the family and despite seeking a pda diagnosis for one of your own, why is that?

Maybe you should sort out your own kids before judging your poor niece/sister.

Maybe she is so desperate for her Mothers attention that she has to misbehave, many children who have a sibling who is special needs feel as though the "special" child is the be all and end all and the whole family revolve around them and their needs. As a SEN i have seen this many times.
I was out with my DGD at an Easter Egg hunt on Friday and a young child was constantly getting in to trouble from her parents for acting up, she was constantly told to remember " your poor sister has Autsim, she has to go first" ! Some parents forget their other children are just that, children !

and caused a family rift that would never be repaired.

What utterly ridiculous advice. Some of the worst I’ve ever come across on MN where the standard is usually high and it is very helpful. Why would you actually encourage someone to cause a family rift which never bring anything good and cause untold pain and suffering for everyone involved and benefits no one. I understand sometimes in hart breaking situations or extreme circumstances they happen but you would be willing to cause one over this???

If she answers for other people say dont be silly x and repeat the question feel free to take the younger two off your sisters hands telling her I would take the three but I dont think I could cope and she clearly needs time with her mom right now if your sister expresses surprise explain her child is attention seeking and it's best if she gets some from her mother your happy to facilitate this by taking the other two it's a big age gap anyway so things that appeal to a 12 year old will not appeal to a two year old

I don't think you are being U to want to take just the younger children without a difficult pre-teen who resents and sometimes bullies her siblings, no. However, I think you are a little too preoccupied with trying to punish, or get the parents to punish, the older child: why should she not have her parents' undivided attention for a week, while the younger children have an enjoyable time on their own without an older child sitting on them? It sounds as though the older girl may have mental health problems of her own, and that she is pathologically jealous of the attention that her siblings get from her parents, from you, even from the dogs. I don't think it's your job to be her therapist, and taking the others without her is fine; but I also don't think it's your job to act as her judge and in particular to try to interfere with her relationip with her mother. Also, I do think that you are by now so angry with her that you can't distinguish serious offences on her part, like bullying her sister, from trivial ones, like being a bit argumentative about the moon. Probably best for each of you to have a break from the other!

I would add that, whatever you do, it's important not to try to influence your sister to reject one child in favour of the other, even temporarily as a form of discipline. I know of a case in my own family where a mother's tendency to play her children off against each other as a means of influencing their behaviour contributed to at least two of the daughters hating each other into old age, and to some extent affected relations between different branches of the family for generations.