To leave one niece out?

[HipHipHippoo]

My sister has 3 DDs aged 12, 7 and 2. I have posted before about how the 12 yo is incredibly mean to her siblings, particularly 7 yo who has autism (not sure how to link to previous posts)

We have been away camping this week together with my DC and some incidents make me very angry/irritated with 12 yo niece.

For example:

She knows 7 yo is extremely particular about food - she barely eats and is underweight. 12 yo has stopped 7 yo eating at least 3 meals this week - by purposely knocking her plate across the table so her food would touch, by going on at her to try her meal and putting some of it on her plate (making 7 yo sick) and by coughing all over her food

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer. For example, I'll say to my DC "Sophie, please stop messing with the tent zips" and DN will say "I'm not messing with them!" even though their names sound nothing alike. She does this constantly

7 yo niece loves my dogs but every time they go near her, 12 yo calls them away so she can't stroke them

We went to some arcades and 12 yo won something she has zero interest in but that she knows 7 yo would adore. 7 yo never asks for anything and told her how lucky she was to win it. 12 yo made a big show of how she didn't want it so was going to give it away, making 7 yo think it would be to her...then gave it to a stranger and smiled smugly straight at 7 yo as she did so

Whenever 7 yo is sitting with or chatting to her mum, 12 yo will call her away then jump in her spot. 12 yo even races to get next to her mum before 2yo then gloats that she has Mummys hand

She corrects or argues with everyone constantly. My DC remarked it was a full moon and she insisted it was only 3/4 despite it clearly being fucking full! She asked where her bag was and I said on her sleeping bag, she kept saying no it isn't- I'm looking and it definitely isn't. It was very slightly off the sleeping bag but she could clearly see it, she just had to argue!

She is constantly after food, drinks and wanting to be bought stuff. She sulks and spoils it if anyone else gets a say in what they want to do and her mood brings everyone down.

I'm taking my DC camping in the summer and was going to offer to take my nieces too to give my sister a break but I really don't want to take 12 yo. I think her sisters would flourish with some time away from her, and that she needs to learn at some point that her behaviour is intolerable and that people won't want to spend time with her if she behaves in this way. However, taking her sisters away is rewarding her in a way as she then gets her mum's full attention.

What do you think? Am I unreasonable to say I don't want to take her?

Thank you.

, I want to clarify to her that I don't want to take her because of her behaviour

Absolutely not your place.

HipHipHippoo you can choose who to offer to take away with you and you can give your reasons too, if she asks, or even if she doesn't. If you will be 'in loco parentis' or whatever the phrase is then you can certainly say why it would be too challenging for you to have to deal with that behaviour.

All these unhealthy sibling dynamics and an OP who is too overinvolved in those dynamics for a healthy adult to be. I reckon it all started when OP and her sister were little and that is why OP cannot bear how her sister deals with her children.

I very strongly agree with this. I think it's incredibly hard for any of us to completely leave our childhood behind in this way - I know that the way I read this thread is partially shaped by being an older sibling who immediately bristles at a 'the older one can be held completely accountable for their actions like an adult, but the younger one is just a sweet little baby who needs constant protection' narrative - but that's about me, not these siblings. I absolutely think OP is projecting a lot onto the situation - she hasn't ever said who's the older sibling, has she? I would be willing to wager a decent amount of money that it's her sister.

The other thing that shocked me reading through this thread but particularly the last one is how domineering OP is being. She explicitly says in the other thread that she's taken it upon herself to discipline her DN because her sister won't. That's shockingly inappropriate - she's not her parent. I'm not in the 'you must never tell off someone else's child' camp, but completely taking over discipline in this way is different and very much not ok.

I agree, NewAccount, especially as she has such an obvious dislike for her niece. Discipline needs to come from a place of love, not loathing, otherwise there will be untold damage.

also, you don't just get an assessment. It's a battle to be referred, you then wait for months often year for an assessment. And it's her niece. Assessment/referrals would be up to the parents and as they have already one child with ASD, I'd suspect they are more clued up about it than posters on here

Yes. All the posters who recognise the signs of asd because they've been there done that know how referrals and assessment works. Funnily.

12 year old is acting up getting attention for negative acts because she is ignored due to my being busy with other 2 demanding children. You sound unsympathetic and thinking her behaviour is evil not emotionally led, she’s 12 FFS!!!

12 year old needs alone time with mum. Position camping trip like this, not a punishment.

She always has to be better than them and gloat about something.

This (and I may be wrong) suggests to me she is actually very lonely and has incredibly low confidence.

Anything I or her mum say to anyone, she will answer. For example, I'll say to my DC "Sophie, please stop messing with the tent zips" and DN will say "I'm not messing with them!" even though their names sound nothing alike. She does this constantly

Could this be that she was trying to say “I want attention and seeing as I am clearly not getting it I will try and subtlety take over the conversation by pretending to think something is about me when it obviously isn’t” again I’m not sure but is this possible?

Alexa

yes. All the posters who recognise the signs of asd because they've been there done that know how referrals and assessment works. Funnily.

then you also know that the aunt cannot just take her niece for an assessment. in that sense the 'take her to get assessed' comments are just nonsensical.

Nobody said the aunt should take her to be assessed. It was a suggestion that the op may not have considered that the older sibling may have signs of ASD herself.
I would have no problem talking to my sister about this openly if my niece was acting like this.

Sorry I am not wording my posts as well as others. I hope it all works out ok.

theonewiththecats, you seem very concerned that people shouldn't be allowed to suggest that the DN has ASD. Maybe you have some sort of vested interest in preventing ASD being linked with difficult or unpleasant behaviour. I'm not sure but laying into people like this isn't helpful.

Lots of people with ASD are undiagnosed and their resulting unmet needs can cause them to behave in ways that cause problems for others. Difficulties with theory of mind, social anxiety, generalised anxiety, the need for control, inability to read body language, devastatingly low self-esteem, etc, can all impair someone's social communication and sometimes make it look like they are being an 'arse'. It's not an excuse; it's an explanation.

People with experience of ASD who could see autism traits in the behaviour the OP has described had a choice. Some of us have risked the accusation of 'armchair diagnostician' because we think it's important that this child is better understood.

If she has ASD and nobody realises, she could well be heading for significant mental health problems and severely impaired functioning as an adult. That is in nobody's interests.

When people read an OP where someone's behaviour is causing a problem and they can see that the origin could be a neurodevelopmental disorder, it is perfectly acceptable for them to raise it as a possibility. There is no implied insult to others with the condition there unless you're actively looking for one.

Nobody has excused the DN's behaviour but lost of people have offered explanations that make sense within the bounds of their own experience.

Nobody has told the OP to whisk the child off for an assessment without telling her parents. Some people have suggested that a neurodevelopmental assessment might help her.

I don't think I've ever seen a post suggesting that someone has ASD simply because they are being rude or bullying someone. I have, however, seen lots where posters have seen a group of behaviours described that seem to follow a pattern that could be explained by ASD and they have kindly shared their own experience to help the OP. If that brings a new level of understanding to the person concerned, that's great. It its wrong, they are free to dismiss it and move on. Nobody is doing it to insult anyone.

Goldmandra you explain things so beautifully!

@Not everyone who is a bully needs an assessment of some sort. Some people (incl kids) are just mean.
Being an arse is certainly not a symptom of ASD/Asperger's. Not sure why posters on MN always like to suggest that someone has ASD if they are described as rude/mean/etc'

Bullying is not a symptom of ASD, no. However, people with ASD may sometimes behave inappropriately because of difficulty with understanding the social rules. It is not so much the sibling bullying that gives rise to the suggestion of possible ASD, as some of the other behaviours mentioned: obsessive arguing about factual details (as in the moon incident); responding to any statement or comment as though it's addressed to her; apparent lack of understanding of the conventions of conversation as shown by both the above. Moreover, the possibility of ASD comes to mind because there is a strong genetic component to ASD, and the risk of having ASD is quite high for someone with a sibling with ASD: anything from 6% to 19% in different studies. She may not have it, but it's not unreasonable to consider the possibility.

AmaryllisNightAndDay, thank you

Any update on what you are planning to do then @HipHipHippoo?

thanks for the lecture, gold. I have a child with severe Asd/+ learning diffs and another one under assessment for HFA/anxiety. I know a thing or too about ASD.

You're welcome

My sister and nieces have been over to mine today. I have been speaking to my sister about DN as she's struggling with her behaviour at home and we agreed I'd entertain the younger ones as much as I could so she could have some time with DN.

DN is into nails and hair at the moment, so they watched YouTube tutorials and did each other's nails and hair and DN was happy. She then went off to ask my DC and her sisters if they wanted there's done. Dsis and I praised her and said how kind it was to include them as they were all so happy to be included and have her positive attention.

It soon transpired that she told my DC they needed to pay for her services, and that she'd got my 5 yr old to empty her money box to pay her. Five mins after they went off we heard screaming from 7 yr old niece and find 12 yr old pinning her down trying to remove her nail polish and plaits as she doesn't have any money to pay

We moved on and the DC were all chalking/playing ball games/making up dances in the garden. 12 yr old was leading the dancing and bossing everyone, kept praising the others but telling 7 yr old niece she was doing it wrong constantly - leading to tears of frustration. 7 yr old niece went to play ball instead, 12 yr old just kept following her to knock it out of her hands and soon threw it over next doors garden so 7 yr old couldn't play it anymore. Dsis called her away to go for a walk to the shop with her and 7 yr old started chalking. Literally within 2 mins of being back, 12 yr old went and got a glass of water and "accidentally" spilt it all over 7 yr old drawing.

She also "didn't mean to" trip her over three times. She "didn't mean to" upset her by throwing her teddy in the paddling pool. She "didn't mean to" make her cry by racing her to the toilet then locking herself in there for 20 mins when 7 yr old was desperate for the toilet.

Towards the end of the afternoon, 12 yr old approached 7 yr old and asked her to play a board game (12 yr old always approaches 7 yr old, never vice versa) 7 yr old was wary, as 12 yr old usually makes her think she'll win then wins and gloats about it, but 12 yr old begged her to play so she said yes. They chatted and laughed as they played and we praised them lots. 12 yr old let 7 yr old win for the first time ever and we thought maybe we'd turned a corner. She asked 7 yr old for a high five to celebrate her victory, then whispered something to her. 7 yr old started crying hysterically and came over to me for help. 12 yr old had spat into her hand before the high five, knowing it would cause 7 yr old to be extremely distressed. I just don't know why she has such a vendetta against her. Even when she has her mum's full attention and 7 yr old is occupying herself, she'll prefer to seek out 7 yr old and spoil whatever she's doing. It makes no sense.

I think it's clear she's an incredibly troubled young girl with some deep seated issues and possibly neurodiversity into the mix. It would be incredibly naive to think that one afternoon of attention from her mum is suddenly going to reverse all of that. It sounds like she and the family in general need some professional help and in the mean time the girls need to be kept separate. Nothing is going to change overnight she really needs lots of intensive support.

She consistently gets the most attention, yet still seems to cause constant upset.

She clearly needs professional help. Is your sister prepared to pursue that? Have you mentioned it to her? You say you've discussed it but it seems your only position is that she's just a bad person as opposed to a troubled child who needs help.

I don't think there's any point in you listing all her behaviour here. What do you expect to get from another huge list of how bad she is?
You should be talking to your sister so that she can seek professional help.

I haven't said its because she's a bad person. I'm trying to demonstrate that it isn't because she's starved of attention, forced to look after the little ones, feeling pushed out and so on like PP have suggested. My sister feels completely at a loss as to what to do next. School have no concerns about her.

School nursing team would be a start, they can give support and advice then refer on to the appropriate people as needed (e.g., mental health support).

She needs to watch them more closely and she needs to clamp down on any bad behavior firmly and quickly for a start. Excuses like “it was just an accident” are hard to deal with, but it still needs to be dealt with. She needs to keep them apart as much as possible, I think. I suspect they will never get along, but a situation where they just don’t interact much would be much more preferable to the current situation.

I bet there are a ton of books dealing with sibling rivalry and jealousy. There would be a good place to look for ideas.