To be puzzled about what is fair when it comes to bank holidays and childminder

[MotherOfDragonite]

I am really confused about bank holidays, and don't know what is fair in this situation. Essentially, the childminder wants to be paid for bank holidays when she is off. But my own employer won't be paying ME for bank holidays, so I would end up very out of pocket.

My DD goes to a childminder on Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays. She's very happy and the childminder is very good. We didn't discuss things like this before we started definitely a mistake on my part and there was no contract. My DD will be leaving at the end of September to go to nursery. We have 5 bank holidays (all on MY days) between now and then. I pay roughly £55 a day.

I also didn't discuss it with my employer. I only work two days a week for them, and these days are Monday and Friday (their choice). They don't really know what to do about bank holidays and have suggested that I should get some pro rated bank holidays and then perhaps make up the others by working on a different day. On the Tuesday I study for a course I'm taking, and also do paid freelance work. So it's not really a 'spare' day that I can shift things to without losing money there too.

I'm not sure what is fair to the CM. I totally recognise that she deserves bank holidays too, but as a parent who does Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays I feel I would be bearing the brunt of the cost when other parents aren't. If I did Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays I would never have this situation at all! As it is, I will be losing £275.

What would be a fair solution here?

I guess it does not seem fair. I am not being paid for all the bank holidays, I am being paid for a prorated amount. Yet I am being expected to pay for all of the childminder's bank holidays, not just a prorated amount.

Whereas, I am paid for bank holidays, so would it be fair for me to have to pay a CM for them? It’s not about what your employment conditions are, it’s about what hers are. And you have a choice to hire her or not.

I personally would not pay for a service/agree to a contract on days where that service is not available but having spent many years being self employed I’m a bit more clued up on that.

Not quite so clued up. There are all sorts of situations where an entire industry have practices which apply across the board. Your choice is to have that product/service or not. You don’t have a choice to have it but not follow those conditions. Childminders most often work to this principle because they deserve paid holidays, just like many others in the workforce get.

I am in a situation where I have paid a good few hundred pounds for childcare I am unable to use. But I need to do so in order to make sure I have the space for when I do need it in the future. Not fair, but there it is.

When you buy an insurance policy, you are paying for risks you don’t have. You might not be able to get, say, flood cover for your home, but your policy price is based on the insurance company having enough money to pay for all who do.

When you buy a plane ticket, you are paying for the accessibility services that you can’t access without a disability.

When you pay tax, you pay for lots of stuff you can’t access.

The only difference here is, this CM highlights it as a cost, whereas more often it is hidden in the overall cost you pay. Either way, you can’t choose not to pay it if it is an industry wide practice, unless you don’t use the service.

That's all fine and we'll in theory but without a legally binding contract in place the CM can whistle for her extortionate demands.

As per contract endof. I am paid all BH and 4 weeks holidays. I am constantly turning away business.

She’s agreed to you paying 1/2 this time, why not talk to her again and say that you’d be happy to pay 2/5ths of the BH’s DD is there OR move days as you’re only paid for 2/5ths of the BH’s so can’t afford to pay them all.

There isn’t a ‘normal’ it’s just what the CM chooses to put in the contract.

The onus was on her to provide the contract and she didn’t, she really should negotiate on this.

If that’s what her terms are then you don’t have a lot of room for negotiation. In the absence of a contract you can try to change the terms but she’d be within her rights to say pay or leave.

I am an Ofsted registered child minder and we must work on contracts. We sit down with the parents before we start and in the contract there is a part all about the hours we work and the days we get paid. This includes days off holidays sickness bank holidays ECT. It covers everything and when both parents and child minder are happy they both sign it and both have a copy. I believe it is illegal now to child mind if you are not Ofsted registered.

She is Ofsted registered...

I used the same CM for over 10 years with 2 dcs.

My CM has a contract and sent a quarterly invoice broken down into weeks so we could all see what we were paying. Across those weeks she averaged the payments do each month was the same price. She did charge for Bank holidays and wasn't open.

She charged for school holidays but was always open.
She never changed for her own holidays or her own sickness. If she was sick (which she hardly ever was) she would refund.

She would also happily swap a day if she could accommodate it.

She's OFSTED outstanding reg and she's always full.

I agree there's no standard across the board way of doing things as a CM is self employed and they can draw up their own contracts.

If you get on well, have a talk about it. Honestly it's better to have a chat so you can both see what you both think.

To be fair, it's confusing you don't have to be Ofsted registered if you are a babysitter or if you are a private nanny in somebody else's house only if you mind children in your own premises.

Normal for me would be that the childminder does not charge for days she is not available to work. Self employed people don't get holiday pay, they budget the income over the year to be able to cover any time off.

Where parents choose to go on holiday, full fees would be payable as is normal in a day nursery. You are paying for the place and it's up to you whether or not you use it.

Some childminders offer some term time only spaces, and have older children return to them in the holidays meaning no retainer needs to be paid.
Others offer full time only and again, you pay for the space and it's up to you if you use it.

I would not be expecting to pay bank holidays.

Childminder provides a service, her terms are her choice. If you dont like find someone else.
BUT , no contract is not normal and would lead me to check her insurance, first aid and ofsted report.
As no contract I wouldnt pay.

If she hadn't provided you with a contract which made clear her terms I would not be paying for hours not worked either.

I will be working part time including Mondays and went through the terms carefully as it can make a huge difference over the year. Especially as some years every bank holiday except Good Friday will fall on a Monday or Tuesday. As it turned out my preferred nursery, which was slightly more expensive than the others, worked out slightly cheaper as they don't charge for the weeks Christmas closure or other bank holidays. They do charge for 2 inset days but vary the days so these don't disproportionately affect only some parents. One nursery I saw charged for Bank Holidays, 2 weeks Christmas closure and 3 Monday Inset days. That would mean 11 days out of 108 I would have to pay for a service not available to me.

OP what is fair is what you agreed with her in the beginning. If you didn't agree anything then it is up to you whether you want to continue using her services.

Personally running a small business I always put things in writing and if people cause problems I give notice. So if you don't pay her then if she is oversubscribed expect her to tell you that she can no longer have your daughter.

From your op;

My DD goes to a childminder on Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays. She's very happy and the childminder is very good.

From your post today at 10.26;

To be fair, it's confusing you don't have to be Ofsted registered if you are a babysitter or if you are a private nanny in somebody else's house only if you mind children in your own premises.

So which is it!????

You said your child goes to a childminder. That is someone providing care in their own home, no?

This service must be registered unless the child is over 8 or only less than 2 hours a time.

We can only advise you based on the information you provide us but to be honest it doesn't seem like you actually have much of a clue which is quite concerning.

She goes to the cm, the cm is Ofsted registered, and has to be Ofsted registered because of providing the service at her premises. Where's the conundrum or inconsistency in that?

Anyway, yes this is the convention with CM. If you have booked the Monday and so on, then you would expect to pay when that falls on a bank holiday. I would do this without quibbling now for the sake of good relations, then ask if you can draw up something a bit more "lite" after she returns from holiday, explaining that it's a bit expensive for you (perhaps whilst remembering that this is your problem, not hers). CM may well be very understanding.

My son went to various childcare settings. Where there was a formal arrangement at a nursery which included Mondays then I paid for all Mondays the setting was open, whether DS attended or not. I paid same monthly regardless of any bank holidays as they factored it in.

When I was contracting and he went to a childminder on an ad-hoc basis I only paid for days I used. One child minder charged by the hour and I only paid for number of hours he was actually there. The other was by the day so I still had to pay full day even if I only needed a couple of hours - but I knew in advance so usually keep time to minimum at childminder where I paid by hour, but childminder where I'd pay for day regardless I'd usually get other chores done and a bit of peace and collect at end of day! If she wasn't available I wouldn't expect to pay though.

So it does depend how you are billed. If it's monthly then I wouldn't expect a discount for a month with bank holiday in it. But if you pay by the day then I would expect to only pay for days they are open.

The complications of working part time including Mondays and the palava of Bank Holidays!

I’m afraid I wouldn’t pay for a service that’s not being provided. Either she takes DC and gets paid, or doesn’t but then doesn’t get paid. I would not be paying her to sit on her bum!

This is why I don’t use a cm.
I’m self employed so paid only when I work.
CMs are also self employed but the norm seems to be to still charge even when they don’t work.
I used a nursery instead which was open all year except two days at Xmas - lots of the parents didn’t get BHs off so the nursery covered these too.

If CMs insist on clients paying for their bank holidays (instead of the normal employers) then surely ALL the clients should just pay an enhanced rate to cover them? At the moment it's just people like the op whose days fall on BHs who paying for them so I can see the injustice of that. Note to future part timers - don't choose Mon and Fri as your days - you will bear the brunt of paying for no service!

I'm a registered childminder and I don't charge for any time I am not available to work, holidays or sickness. Childminder in next street does charge for bank holidays. We both stipulate our terms and conditions fully when signing contracts. You should have a contract.

I think (speaking as an employment lawyer) that your childminder may well have the right to paid holiday.

There's a lot of confusion on here about whether she holds herself out as self employed and what that means for holiday.

Holiday rights depend on whether she's your employee, a worker or genuinely in business on her own account. Ideas about self employment may be relevant to tax but that's nothing to do with you - it's a bit of a red herring.

It's not a straightforward test but if she provides her services personally (so she can't just sub in another childminder) this may mean she's a worker. If she has to take your child on the agreed days, this again points to worker (or even employee) status.

Workers don't have the full range of employment rights but they are entitled to holidays. The basic entitlement is 28 days inclusive of bank holidays. So if she's working 3 days a week she's entitled to 17 days' holiday a year. If one of her working days falls on a bank holiday she would take that as one day off out of the 17 days.

@CallMeRachel what are you on about? OP has clearly said the CM is ofsted registered and dc goes to the CM..

@Level75 This is really interesting. I know this was definitely the case for any nanny employed for over 10 or 11 hours a week, last time I looked. But I hadn't imagined it would be the same for a childminder, as they work for a number of different families and operate on their own premises?

Certainly when I have been freelance in a totally different industry, some companies have insisted that I should either set up as a limited company, or sign something saying that I did not solely do work for them, to ensure that they weren't liable for me as a worker with employment rights.

@MrsChook that was absolutely my problem with this! In theory I am happy to pay extra so the CM I use can have paid holidays. In practice I am (I think rightly) upset that I seem to be the only parent paying for all of these! I would definitely have chosen different working days had I known (but my fault for not having a contract in place).

This is why contracts should be bloody in place!!!!