To wonder why we treat our Junior Doctors so badly?

[alfredomuretto]

These people have likely been the very brightest in their school, got very high grades, struggled through 5 years of university (£9k fees). Then they get to enjoy two years of being a junior doctor. They have to work very long hours, in appalling stressful conditions, direly understaffed, with nurses treated just as badly. Then they get a starting salary of £27k.

Why aren't we valuing them better?

It is hard but if gets easier and if you progress salary increases and into 6 figures for some

It doesn't get easier. The hours are tough and the work is increasingly grim. The pay doesn't give you good mental health. I work with doctors and cannot recommend it.

There will be different experiences for different doctors. The pay always helps

Then they get to enjoy two years of being a junior doctor. They have to work very long hours, in appalling stressful conditions, direly understaffed, with nurses treated just as badly. Then they get a starting salary of £27k.

They are limited to 48 hours a week and earn up to 100% on top of their salary if the shift pattern is shit.

Whilst I agree that the conditions and support are awful (as are a lot of professions when you enter them but I prefer people who have a responsibility for me not dying to be in peak form personally) I can’t get behind thinking £27k isn’t enough remuneration as a starting salary. That’s a lot of money to walk through the door as a wet behind the ears member of staff.

"The pay always helps".

No. For some people, quality of life is way more important than money.

Money contributes to the quality

If you're just talking about the two foundation years then bear in mind it's a training programme as much as a job. I'm due to start FY1 this summer and to be honest am astounded my current skill levels are valued at 27k. I feel like I should still be paying them to teach me as per the last four years . And it does go up quickly. My husband is a police officer with seven years experience, managerial responsibility and at least as much crap to deal with on a day to day basis and doesn't earn an awful lot more than that. So am pretty chuffed with 27k tbh. But agree with you that the conditions aren't exactly stellar otherwise...

MoreSlidingDoors

That may be the case, but certainly many reports are abound of Junior Doctors being expected to work far more. After 48 hours a week, how many will have the energy to work lots and lots more on top?

That pay works out at roughly an £11 an hour salary. My 17 year old son earn £9 an hour in a completely unskilled job.

Sure £27k would not be sniffed at all for someone graduating at 21. Many of these doctors will be 24+ (Many medical schools are 6 years)

The pay's not that bad:

https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/pay-doctors

Don't forget F1s are brand new graduates, not even able to be fully registered with the GMC.

@Ave. Are you sure you're a junior doctor? Do you live somewhere reasonably priced to live?

Surely your husband police officer has not gone through 5/6 years of university to get to that level, nor likely had the pressure of top grades constantly?

Because Drs are seen as wealthy elite. Who at the same time should work for a pittance. Because they are not seen as worthy in the public eye in the way nurses are.

I want my Dr to be well paid as I want my Drs to be good and retained by the nhs.

Are you a JD OP?

Are you sure you're a junior doctor?

Da fuck?

Well they’re treated a lot better than when I was a junior doctor, 38 years ago!
We worked 100 hours a week. Only 40 of them were paid at full rate. The other 60 we got less per hour than the hospital cleaner.
We were so tired we hallucinated on duty and fell asleep in our dinner.
We weren’t supervised by consultants to anything like the degree nowadays - you didn’t dare disturb them at night, and there was a “ see one, do one, teach one” culture. I was solo on call in the hospital at night for anaesthetics after just 8 weeks training in the specialty. My first emergency case alone was a 5 year old child.
We would have regarded today’s conditions as heaven, apart from the bureaucracy, interference and micromanagement by the Trust.

No, my daughter is a junior doctor

What grade is your dd and how much does she earn?

And the self-reflective record keeping, that led to the pile of evidence that convicted Hadiza Bawa-Garba.

I thought junior doc was a 6 year status? Adam Kay's book said so.

There is pressure but the entry requirements are so high that entrants are already used to achieving high grades. There are those that can’t get in first time and do another degree. They generally find it harder but have the added bonus of having done a university degree and knowing how to manage that

In my honest opinion, as a GP, it's flogging the willing horses. Government know that healthcare staff, and probably staff in other public sector roles as well, will give a lot of themselves for other people because it's the nature of the job.

So easier to take advantage of people who will, in their eyes, carry on working because we are kind natured. And here lies the issue. Lose the staff that care by undervaluing them and what are you left with.

Disclaimer: I did not agree with all of the arguments put across by junior doctors during the strikes. Important to be careful not to sound like spoilt brats when most people earn far less than us and still cope.

moresliding legally they work 48 hours but actually more - my son and all Drs would never leave a patient just because their shift is over. He has worked 13 hours without a break - toilet, drink or food - and been so exhausted that I have picked him up and taken him home as he didn’t feel safe to drive. Had he been a patient he would have been put on a drip and catheterised.

um, you're not just a junior doctor for two years. And you have a huge student debt. And grad engineers start on higher wages

alfredomuretto No, I'm a final year medical student. Still have eight weeks to go but I've done my exams and have my job offer, so unless I do something particularly idiotic in the next few months I will be come the beginning of August. We live in the south-east commuter belt, so not exactly reasonably priced, and have two small children. It's not like I think 27k is a fortune. And to be honest I actually have a previous undergraduate degree and a masters and could be earning a heck of a lot more. But I want to be a doctor, and I think 27k is very reasonable renumeration for new graduates with no experience, who are essentially there to learn more on the job. And I don't actually think many people I know from my course would disagree. Most of the dissatisfaction with pay is over the slightly later stages of training, after foundation but before consultant level.

Junior doctor = 2 years as a foundation doctor, plus specialist training (further 3 yrs for most GPs, 6 - 8 yrs for other specialities)

In some ways it's less bad than it was, in absolute hours for instance, but a lot of the team based structure has vanished into the shiftwork, which is not good for mutual support and morale.

@ave. Interesting, best of luck , it'll be a long hard slog