To wonder why we treat our Junior Doctors so badly?

[alfredomuretto]

These people have likely been the very brightest in their school, got very high grades, struggled through 5 years of university (£9k fees). Then they get to enjoy two years of being a junior doctor. They have to work very long hours, in appalling stressful conditions, direly understaffed, with nurses treated just as badly. Then they get a starting salary of £27k.

Why aren't we valuing them better?

I know. It’s riduculous. A bit of respite for cases that require admission!!!

DaisyDreaming

So who do you trust? Bear in mind consultants, for the majority of the time, are not on the ward!

I am another one from the old days of 90h plus per week and 48h shifts over weekends and we still had targets / work to finish before we left - can’t say the money was an issue most of us were there because we wanted too and loved the job even though per hour we were the lowest payed in hospital - the team support from other juniors and seniors was great and the nursing staff were amazing for support, to learn from and also made us feel part of the team. Senior doctor is a different role with its own stresses it’s a great job that is spoilt by unrealistic time restricts and excessive case loads. Good colleagues and nice patients are what makes it worthwhile !

@tilder
Nurse now have degrees plus are expected to work as students on wards “learning” without getting paid and the most senior nurses will carry an awful lot of responsibility for £40k tops whilst lots of senior consultants are millionaires.
I know junior Drs work incredibly hard but they mostly will be rewarded pay wise when they qualify whilst nurses definitely won’t be.

If the nurses want the pay they can study medicine instead of nursing. Well off ? Yes. Millionaires? No

@Whitechocandraspberry
And if drs want better pay they should become bankers🙄

Sorry 4 yrs after CCST - there is no way you earn £110K unless you are doing 15+ PAs.

Ex is a surgeon, he has been a con for 12 yrs an he earns £95K with a 1:6 on call 0700 start and home maybe by 1930.

rankoutsider, Moxarella, Alfredo - I was until v recently a junior doctor!

So bugger me I do know what I am talking about!
I am female
I have children
I am an anaesthetist
I also have a chronic illness that means maintaining my blood sugar - have never since qualifying not eaten , taken a dump, changed a tampon or had a glass of water.

when it is the difference between living and dying -you learn to prioritise your day slightly different.

Some (not all) of the comments from consultants on this thread are really disappointing. I am sure you had your own challenges during training, that doesn’t mean juniors now don’t also face challenges. It is not a race to the bottom. I sincerely hope the person who thinks juniors ‘whinge’ is in no way responsible for any sort of training or supervision of juniors.

I agree with many others who say the pay is not the issue, many friends would willingly take a pay cut if it improves the working conditions. I have a lot of respect for all doctors, nurses and allied healthcare professionals working for the NHS, at every level. You all face huge challenges, and the vast majority are wonderfully supportive of each other.

£27k isn't great for the academic calibre and hard work required to be a doctor. I started on £40k in another professional career, 2 years earlier than the doctors who started uni at the same time as me (due to their longer course). I have seen the stress my sister goes through on a daily basis as a junior doctor, and to be fair my career is stressful too but I got properly remunerated for selling my soul (no longer in the career as hours were too long )

So yes, I think we should start treating our doctors better or the best students will keep deciding to choose other professional careers that pay much better or will go to Canada/ Australia to practice.

DH is a Dr and what astounds me is that nobody seems to give credit to the caliber/requirements to become a Dr.

Those who have the required grades are turning down careers in finance/tech which pay 3x as much (easily) to help people. £40k might be a lot of money to some but not to the kind of people you want saving your life!!

In my opinion, those who say things like If Dr’s wanted money they should have become bankers are down there with Trump supports and those who voted to leave the EU 🤔

So our best and brightest should go into banking and we should what, drop the Dr requirements down to a level where the salary/lifestyle make it reasonable? I mean, anyone with a BTEC in sports science can anethetise a 6 day old baby and perform heart surgery, right?🤔 FFS 🙄

I won’t go into detail but I assure you- I’m currently very concerned for DH safety and have found the NHS very unreasonable employers.
🤔 how many people would find it acceptable to be told ‘next year you have to go work 2 hours drive away’ (13 hour shifts and nights) and there be no negotiation. Despite your wife having her own career and owning a home right next to the hospital you currently work at...etc.

It’s disgusting!

Might have to do what everyone else is and sod off to Australia/Newzealand.

🤔 wonder how much the NHS loses annually in all their trained Dr’s and specialists moving abroad because they’re sick of being treated badly!

I sincerely hope the person who thinks juniors ‘whinge’ is in no way responsible for any sort of training or supervision of juniors.

Out of the game now but yes, was responsible for training and supervision for many years and stand by my comments. I also have many friends, relatives and previous colleagues still working who also completely agree.

I was a junior doctor till 9 months ago - the minute you become a consultant you do not forget what it was like, so yes many of the consultants on here do know what life is/was like as a junior doctor.

What I noticed the most in the last few years was the loss of camaraderie and team working. Clock in and clock out and dump the jobs you did not do onto someone else for the next shift. I remember being given an earful for not doing the bloody warfarins before I left for the evening by my SHO, you then realise when your colleague does it and you are on call what a pain it was and how time consuming - you did not do it again!!

@Hopping - would you give us high house prices and bad commutes?

we do have a choice to quit and do whatever else we think is gonna be better. That keeps me going as I have a metaphorical resignation letter in my back pocket.

@Honeydukes92
Ridiculous l was just replying to a snob who implied nurses should work harder if they want the same money as Drs.
As for being a Trump supporter how ridiculous.
Lots of doctors are motivated by money more so than nurse plus are condescending as lots of posters have demonstrated.
I left nursing because of the poor pay long hours and also the attitude of mangers and some Drs looks like I made the right choice.

@Honeydukes92
I’m a black remain voter if it’s any of your business “Drs Wife.
Also you must realise UK citizens can’t vote in uk elections.

Yes take your bad attitude to Australia you’ll fit right in.

we do have a choice to quit and do whatever else we think is gonna be better. That keeps me going as I have a metaphorical resignation letter in my back pocket.

Well, yes obviously. If people don't like the hard graft then they can quit and get another job that they feel would be better for them. That's common sense surely? The reality is that for every trainee that feels they can't take the baptism of fire at the beginning there will be many others lining up that will suck it up and get on with it without the entitlement and whinging. People are free to leave.

I do think it's funny though that many people are using occupations such as banking as 'easy alternatives' that earn more. I had a friend who scored a junior spot in a top tier law firm from uni who didn't resurface for years as they were also working 24/7 in order to climb the ladder. I have another friend who's son graduated a few years ago, is starting their career in investment banking and they don't see for over a week at a time even though they live at home. they are not out partying but working 7 days, huge number of hours, they all sleep in the office, send clothes out for dry cleaning and live on takeaway. They do go out running at lunch from what I hear, that's their only 'down time'. People do this as they realise they have a great opportunity that they want to maximise, are physically able to at this age and are willing to put in the hard graft in an effort to secure their future so sacrificing several years of life up front is nothing. Then there are others who feel the world owes them, everything is unreasonable and they should be able to rocket ahead in life on their entitled view as to what constitutes effort and sacrifice.

Hopping exactly!
Junior doctor= survival of the fittest to consultant.

Recently a survey stated the number of Foundation doctors going into specialty training has something like halved since I graduated in 2009.
Many foundation drs struggle to get posts in my specialty (ophth) and other competitive run throughs and now we have people doing F3’s, F4’s and so on.

Not every medical student will go on to become a consultant or GP partner bottom line- many emigrate or leave medicine altogether.

My only advice is pick your specialty carefully if you can.

@lljkk

The training varies.

I qualified in 2005, and am still technically a junior doctor.

2 Years foundation programme
2 Years Core Surgical Training
8 Years Orthopaedic Training
18 Months Specialty Fellowships

My pay is £49k, for well over 60 hours per week, with around £2k of professional fees and subscriptions and any additional courses, exams etc payed for by me.

Trust me when I say, the hours are pretty poor, but the working conditions are utterly atrocious, my hospital wont, for example, even allow me to have a parking permit, which adds over 2 hours to every working day.

£40k might be a lot of money to some but not to the kind of people you want saving your life!!

What 'kind of people' are these? Middle class? money oriented? Do you mean £40k might be a lot of money to Sandra and Donna but it isn't enough for Tarquin? Seriously, what does this sentence mean?

This is the same in so many 'well respected' professions. The pay is fairly low early on (although I would say it's still pretty high compared to average wage etc), as you still don't really know that much. But as you progress you get steady pay increases and end up doing very well. So I wouldn't focus on the current wage for a junior doctor, focus on the potential future earnings.

Look it up. 12 PAs, 3% on call supplement and a CEA - yes £110K. I work 48 hours. Usually 7:30 start, finish at 6:30 twice a week, 4:30 three times a week.

It doesn’t really matter whether new or old conditions are worse, nor whether it is worse than banking or law (have family members in these).

Point is that the govt focus on recruitment (ie training more doctors/nurses than ever before!) but not retention (eg pension changes, under-staffing, increased bureaucracy) - which is essentially wasting a huge amount of resources as they train more people who then quit or go abroad.

In addition recruitment from EU is affected by Brexit and population is aging. Not a great recipe for the future...

I agree with you Alfredomuretto.

DS is about to embark on this trek and I fear it will send him to an early grave.

We are in the US where residents (the equivalent of junior doctor) do 70+ hour weeks and therefore the pay comes to just about minimum wage.

Despite the big money after qualification, burnout is a huge problem.

Same goes for lawyers though - you are expected to bill 3,600 hours a year. This means 60+ hours a week. I know several ex-lawyers now living fulfilled lives as teachers.

I have a cousin in finance in the City who hardly ever saw his children until he left the big name institution he worked in.

...........
I mean, anyone with a BTEC in sports science can anethetise a 6 day old baby and perform heart surgery, right?
I suspect the average GP would find this a difficult proposition.

£40k might be a lot of money to some but not to the kind of people you want saving your life!!
Saving a life actually doesn't happen all that much in medicine. For the most part medicine is a good deal more humdrum, and I for one would prefer to be treated by a doctor who was motivated by something other than money. That could be intellectual curiosity, a desire to heal, a desire to match up to an admired relative in the field.

And what a horribly condescending comment.