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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder why we treat our Junior Doctors so badly?

218 replies

alfredomuretto · 14/04/2019 21:53

These people have likely been the very brightest in their school, got very high grades, struggled through 5 years of university (£9k fees). Then they get to enjoy two years of being a junior doctor. They have to work very long hours, in appalling stressful conditions, direly understaffed, with nurses treated just as badly. Then they get a starting salary of £27k.

Why aren't we valuing them better?

OP posts:
TFBundy · 14/04/2019 22:20

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ijustcannotdoit · 14/04/2019 22:21

To the soon to be junior doc up thread- I'm interested to see if you say you think £27 is decent once you've started and held all that responsibility on your head. When your ward cover on call on the first weekend and the SHO is off sick (or the rota just isn't filled) and the reg can't get out of a&e to help you.

Spoiler; you won't.

Ikeameatballs · 14/04/2019 22:22

There are good bits and bad bits to medicine.

As a young doctor the unsociable hours, demands on doing extra stuff outside of work, passing expensive exams and keeping up with your e-portfolio whilst moving jobs every 4-6 months can be very tough. I don’t think the salary is really the issue for most of those who are unhappy.

Once you finish training the issue becomes that the clinical work is (or should be) now straightforward but as a consultant or GP there is often a lot of extra stuff which isn’t clinical but needs to be done. Not everyone realises that and not everyone is good at it and a lot of workplaces aren’t supportive. In addition the buck stops with you.

Many of those who choose to go into medicine are highly motivated perfectionists but when you work in a very imperfect system that can prevent you from doing your job well and patient care can be impacted that is hugely stressful plus dealing with the distress of others on a daily basis can have a significant impact on mental health. Again I don’t think the salary is the problem.

Whitechocandraspberry · 14/04/2019 22:23

Agree ikea

PurpleDaisies · 14/04/2019 22:25

But I want to be a doctor, and I think 27k is very reasonable renumeration for new graduates with no experience, who are essentially there to learn more on the job

Do you know what “learning on the job” entails? I think you will have a very nasty shock when you start.

stuffedpeppers · 14/04/2019 22:25

Sorry if your son worked for 12 hrs in a shift and did not pee, drink or take a dump - then he needs retraining.

Everyone has 5 minutes to do all of those things and no junior doctor is that busy that they can not do them. Might write notes as they sit and eat a sandwich but no one is that busy not to do those things.

Whitechocandraspberry · 14/04/2019 22:26

Junior docs are not often shocked by what is involved. The nature of the degree teaching means eyes are wide open when they start

PurpleDaisies · 14/04/2019 22:28

Junior docs are not often shocked by what is involved. The nature of the degree teaching means eyes are wide open when they start

I don’t agree with that. As a student you’re protected from the responsibility and the stress that comes with the responsibility for sick patients with very little support from seniors.

Whitechocandraspberry · 14/04/2019 22:29

Our experiences are not necessarily the same

TFBundy · 14/04/2019 22:32

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Seniorcitizen1 · 14/04/2019 22:32

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Gwenhwyfar · 14/04/2019 22:33

I had a friend who tried to kick up a fuss about the hours a few years ago. He was silenced. The problem was mainly the senior doctors who are happy with the situation.
This friend is now a consultant on loads of money.

Whitechocandraspberry · 14/04/2019 22:36

Senior citizen I hope your son doesn’t take after you or he won’t last very long with an aggressive attitude like that

Seniorcitizen1 · 14/04/2019 22:46

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rankoutsider · 14/04/2019 22:47

stuffedpeppers You are so wrong .

Original poster
alfredomuretto · 14/04/2019 22:49

stuffedpeppers. Well what do you do?

OP posts:
Moraxella · 14/04/2019 22:53

@stuffedpeppers I’ve actually had the grimness of being unable to change a tampon in time as stuck in theatre all night an unable to leave an anaesthetised patient.
Frequently dashing between ITU patients (or A&E patients waiting for a bed to become free in ITU) who are trying to die can leave you unable to pee, but you often don’t have time to find water so nothing is going in to come out. Happy to attend whatever training you think I need.

AveAtqueVale · 14/04/2019 22:53

Spoiler; you won't. Possibly, but I'm not sure how earning more would compensate? I've had some really crappy jobs in the past but I don't ever recall thinking earning more would have helped much! I'm not disputing the problems with the job (though I do think in some ways it's a lot better than it used to be), just that the pay is too low. Also I do think people tend to emphasise the negative/ the worst stories get focused on. I've had two lots of mat leave during medical school so most of my friends are now finishing FY1 or FY2, plus have a from school/ undergrad who are further on with training and most seem happy. Or at least moan about their jobs only approximately as much as those who aren't doctors. I don't know - maybe I'm being overly optimistic and by Christmas I'll have run screaming but I feel like earning around the national average salary just out of university isn't bad.

LaurieMarlow · 14/04/2019 22:54

The 27k figure is very misleading. That’s baseline pay for freshly minted grads. Even total newbies will be on more than that due to shift patterns and so on. There are salary increases every year and it climbs significantly.

I do think it’s a challenging gig though. I think there’s s feeling that they have to prove their toughness (and yes this used to be worse). It shouldn’t have to be like that.

bellalou1234 · 14/04/2019 22:56

I work in mental health and our sho's are fab, the pressure and hours and things they need to know.. some are so young too.

Flockingflamingo · 14/04/2019 22:56

You do realise you're a junior doctor for a hell of a lot longer than 2 years?!

Flockingflamingo · 14/04/2019 22:59

Stuffed pepper I don't think you live in the real world.

I know people who have been rota-d to do night shift on changeover day with the expectation they'll then start the new job an hour or two after their last shift finished.

Whitechocandraspberry · 14/04/2019 23:02

Yes you can become a consultant within 6 years Which is not a long time in grander scheme of things. Some people take a bit longer than that but you can become a consultant in early 30s so you still have another 30 years of work on good salary

TwistinMyMelon · 14/04/2019 23:05

@alfredomuretto - Doctors can be "junior" for decades. Any doctor beneath consultant/GP level is a junior doctor.

And yes we're not especially well paid really compared to other similarly qualified professions. But most of us really enjot what we do. But it is bloody hard sometimes. It is definitely a vocation and not a money making venture!

TwistinMyMelon · 14/04/2019 23:07

@Whitechocandraspberry - I know not a single doctor who earns 6 figures. At junior level or any other.